I wish it worked that way. There's examples of things in the Bible that the majority of Christians today believe would get you sent to Hell that I don't consider reasonable at all. Homosexuality is a great example. Or, buying something on Sunday.

right around 50% of christians believe that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle and it's increasingly shifting higher. I sincerely doubt anywhere close to a majority believe buying things on Sunday will send you to hell.

There's surprisingly little on what happens after death in the bible other than if you do good you will get to heaven and if not you might not. It's pointless even dwelling on it, and that is actually such a small part of the faith it doesn't really matter. It stresses not putting yourself in the gray area in the first place, so why even worry about what happens in there?
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]It's like asking a physicist to explain the narwhal; he would probably have good guesses, but it has little relevance to his work on string theory or whatever he may be working on so why dwell on it?

Maybe you don't want to dwell on the point because it makes a mockery of an all-benevolent and all-loving god. Maybe you want to ignore it since it also highlights some of the glaring inaccuracies and omissions in what is supposed to be an infallible book. Frankly, I'd rather ask the questions, how can god be all-benevolent and leave the potential for someone like Adolf Hitler to get into heaven, while someone like John Lennon could perish in hell for eternity? How can the bible be written through divine inspiration and be completely inerrant, when it can't give us a clear simple message about what is right and wrong, what happens after we die, how we achieve salvation (to name just a few things which the bible isn't so clear on).

You can press your eyes tightly together, stick your fingers in your eyes and shout "La la la la la la la la la la" all you want, but I'd rather ask these probing questions, thanks. If you've got any reasonable answers, I'm all ears....

[quote name='way2lazy2care']
right around 50% of christians believe that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle and it's increasingly shifting higher. I sincerely doubt anywhere close to a majority believe buying things on Sunday will send you to hell.
[/quote]

So what use is the bible if the majority of Christians are beginning to get their own ideas about what is right and wrong, which directly contradicts these sacred and holy texts?

[quote name='Telgin' timestamp='1311720652' post='4840862']
I wish it worked that way. There's examples of things in the Bible that the majority of Christians today believe would get you sent to Hell that I don't consider reasonable at all. Homosexuality is a great example. Or, buying something on Sunday.

right around 50% of christians believe that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle and it's increasingly shifting higher. I sincerely doubt anywhere close to a majority believe buying things on Sunday will send you to hell.
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more that it's ridiculous, but it's all there in the book.

The majority statement was a bit misguided, perhaps. I live in the Southeast US with fundamentalist Christians on every corner, so my views on Christianity are a bit skewed. Either way, it is still a rule, whether you want to follow it or not.

About Hell, the whole issue is a bit misunderstanded. I believe the only parable that talked about explicitly about it was that of the rich man that let his servant Lazarus fed off the crambles that fell of the table. Matthew very vividly describes judgement day as follows:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. [sup]32[/sup] All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [sup]33[/sup] He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

[sup]34[/sup] “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. [sup]35[/sup] For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, [sup]36[/sup] I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

[sup]37[/sup] “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? [sup]38[/sup] When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? [sup]39[/sup] When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

[sup]40[/sup] “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

[sup]41[/sup] “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [sup]42[/sup] For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, [sup]43[/sup] I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

[sup]44[/sup] “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

[sup]45[/sup] “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ [sup]46[/sup] “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
[/quote]

We know that Jesus has said 'noone comes to the Father except through me', but here he identifies acts of kindless and love towards human beings as love and kindness towards the Son of Man himself. One can draw their own conclusions from this.

Maybe you don't want to dwell on the point because it makes a mockery of an all-benevolent and all-loving god. Maybe you want to ignore it since it also highlights some of the glaring inaccuracies and omissions in what is supposed to be an infallible book. Frankly, I'd rather ask the questions, how can god be all-benevolent and leave the potential for someone like Adolf Hitler to get into heaven, while someone like John Lennon could perish in hell for eternity? How can the bible be written through divine inspiration and be completely inerrant, when it can't give us a clear simple message about what is right and wrong, what happens after we die, how we achieve salvation (to name just a few things which the bible isn't so clear on).

You can press your eyes tightly together, stick your fingers in your eyes and shout "La la la la la la la la la la" all you want, but I'd rather ask these probing questions, thanks. If you've got any reasonable answers, I'm all ears....

What glaring inaccuracies and omissions? Clearly you must know more than me about the afterlife, as I have no idea where Hitler or Lennon ended up, so perhaps you could share how you came to know? The bible would indicate that Hitler certainly did not end up in heaven.

How can the bible be written through divine inspiration and be completely inerrant, when it can't give us a clear simple message about what is right and wrong, what happens after we die, how we achieve salvation (to name just a few things which the bible isn't so clear on). [/quote]
It gives a clear simple message for the message it is giving. It is not a guide to life, the universe and everything. It explains pretty well how to lead a righteous life, it explains what will happen to righteous people when they die, and it explains the simplest way to salvation. Why should it explain any more than that?

So what use is the bible if the majority of Christians are beginning to get their own ideas about what is right and wrong, which directly contradicts these sacred and holy texts?
[/quote]
What directly contradicts them and where are you all getting this "majority of Christians" statement? If my only experience was with atheists in this thread I wouldn't make the bold claim that, "the majority of atheists have no idea how statistical samples work."

... how can god be all-benevolent and leave the potential for someone like Adolf Hitler to get into heaven, while someone like John Lennon could perish in hell for eternity?

Because everyone has the same chance. If they didn't it wouldn't be fair.

How can the bible be written through divine inspiration and be completely inerrant, when it can't give us a clear simple message about what is right and wrong, what happens after we die, how we achieve salvation (to name just a few things which the bible isn't so clear on).

All of these are very clear in scripture if you really try to understand it.

If you've got any reasonable answers, I'm all ears....

Reasonable according to who? I think the answers are very reasonable:

"what is right and wrong"


Jam 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
Mat 22:38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'


Rom 13:9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Rom 13:10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Rom 13:13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
Rom 13:14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.


Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Gal 6:8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature [fn] will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal 6:9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
Gal 6:10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

"what happens after we die"


Rev 21:6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."


Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
...
Rom 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Jhn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Jhn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.



Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Rev 20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


"how we achieve salvation"

Act 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Verses from John 3 above


Jhn 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1Ti 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.


Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you [fn] to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
Col 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, [fn] the forgiveness of sins.
...
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of [fn] your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

[quote name='way2lazy2care']
right around 50% of christians believe that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle and it's increasingly shifting higher. I sincerely doubt anywhere close to a majority believe buying things on Sunday will send you to hell.

So what use is the bible if the majority of Christians are beginning to get their own ideas about what is right and wrong, which directly contradicts these sacred and holy texts?
[/quote]
Again, it comes down to free will. God is not going to force people to believe anything or follow rules. They will be held accountable however. Try it this way:

"So what use are books filled with laws if the majority of people are going to do whatever they want, which may violate these laws?"

If you commit murder because you think it's ok that you do so, will you still not be held accountable if you're caught?

So, based on the verses above would you say it is fair to say that if you do not hear of Jesus, thus can not accept him, then you are going to hell? (ref: Jhn 14:6)

I also wonder if maybe you can explain; As noted in Jhn 14:6 you can only get into heaven via Jesus, yet in Rev 20:12 is says you are judged according to what it says in the books?

So, if jesus is the only way in what use are the books? Unless the books are simply a list of names, however implied context of those verses would seem to indicate it comes down to what you have done?

So, based on the verses above would you say it is fair to say that if you do not hear of Jesus, thus can not accept him, then you are going to hell? (ref: Jhn 14:6)

I also wonder if maybe you can explain; As noted in Jhn 14:6 you can only get into heaven via Jesus, yet in Rev 20:12 is says you are judged according to what it says in the books?

So, if jesus is the only way in what use are the books? Unless the books are simply a list of names, however implied context of those verses would seem to indicate it comes down to what you have done?

Jesus is the judge. He is the only one that can judge us righteous or unrighteous and he is the only one through whom we will be forgiven if we are not. That does not mean he will not judge us justly according to our actions.

Huh, when did you start your time in politics? Because that 'answer' utterly failed to address the questions...

I wouldn't mind but you've got direct wording up there which says "the only way is via jesus" and "you'll be judged on your actions"... so which is it? and what about those who don't hear, because the bible seems pretty clear on that too (only via jesus...).

What directly contradicts them and where are you all getting this "majority of Christians" statement? If my only experience was with atheists in this thread I wouldn't make the bold claim that, "the majority of atheists have no idea how statistical samples work."

I believe that was in reference to your claim that close to 50% of Christians find homosexuality acceptable, and this number is increasing. Once it's greater than 50% it's a majority, right? And I don't think the Bible can be much more clear on how God sees homosexuality as wrong, but if 50% of Christians find it acceptable, they're not following the rules.

[quote name='Machaira']
Again, it comes down to free will. God is not going to force people to believe anything or follow rules. They will be held accountable however. Try it this way:

"So what use are books filled with laws if the majority of people are going to do whatever they want, which may violate these laws?"

If you commit murder because you think it's ok that you do so, will you still not be held accountable if you're caught?
[/quote]

Free will is pointless. Our ultimate fates are established even before we're born, if you believe that God knows the future. If nothing else, it makes me wonder why God would even bother sending us through life if He knows where we'll end up eventually. Why not just put us there to begin with?

Because we would probably all agree that would be quite wrong to do. So instead God sends us through life so we do something to "deserve" what we get. Except that every event in my life was all established from the beginning, including everything I do. So even though I do make decisions, there's no point to it at all. I do what God knows I'll do and I can't do a thing about it.

That wouldn't be such a big deal if God had no control over the circumstances of my life, but He certainly does. God knows exactly what He would have to change about what I encounter in my life to win me over, yet He chooses to for some people and not to for others. I'd say that makes the ultimate decision His and free will never mattered at all.

That's the difference between God and humans. We don't know that Colonel Mustard is going to murder someone else at 3:52PM in the bathroom with the candlestick, so punishing him is the best thing we can do if he's found out. God knew since the beginning of time that it would happen, but He still allowed it to happen and possibly sends him to Hell over it. God could have just as easily created a different series of circumstances so that no one died, but He doesn't.

Or maybe he does, and Colonel Mustard didn't kill anyone. The point I'm trying to make is that God created the universe and at some point decided He was happy with its course of events. No one's free will makes any difference because it's all consequences of God's timeline in the first place.