Depends on if He told me not to I suppose. The bottom line is that pretty much every Christian I've ever talked to agreed that if you sin, you go to Hell.

If christians believed that we wouldn't believe in heaven as we believe we are all born sinners.

1. God is all knowing
2. God is all loving
3. Hell exists and humans are sent there for disobeying God
[/quote]
3. is not God's fault. Hell is much more a punishment we bring on ourselves than a punishment that God visits upon us.

[quote name='Telgin' timestamp='1311695067' post='4840596']
Depends on if He told me not to I suppose. The bottom line is that pretty much every Christian I've ever talked to agreed that if you sin, you go to Hell.

If christians believed that we wouldn't believe in heaven as we believe we are all born sinners.

1. God is all knowing
2. God is all loving
3. Hell exists and humans are sent there for disobeying God
[/quote]
3. is not God's fault. Hell is much more a punishment we bring on ourselves than a punishment that God visits upon us.
[/quote]

I disagree. I'm not sure how you can claim that we bring it on ourselves when God has preordained what we're going to do by virtue of creating us and knowing what we'll do. If God chooses all of the parameters of my creation, then He knows exactly what I'm going to do and has effectively made my decisions for me. He never had to create anyone that He knew would go to Hell, but He still does.

[quote name='Roots']...[/quote]

Well said, that's what I lacked the eloquence to put down myself. I did indeed forget option #4, but at this point I'm just trying to get people that believe in God to agree that He's either not all powerful, not all knowing or not all loving. Something has to give, so which is it?

1. God is all knowing
2. God is all loving
3. Hell exists and humans are sent there for disobeying God

3. is not God's fault. Hell is much more a punishment we bring on ourselves than a punishment that God visits upon us.
[/quote]


I have no words for this logic.

There's a difference between "I know what you are going to do next" and "I programmed you to be this way". Maybe (wild theory coming), we're the self-evolving AI to God's programming skills? (Yes, I know the rebuttals are coming )

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1311698120' post='4840631']

1. God is all knowing
2. God is all loving
3. Hell exists and humans are sent there for disobeying God

3. is not God's fault. Hell is much more a punishment we bring on ourselves than a punishment that God visits upon us.
[/quote]


I have no words for this logic.



[/quote]
LOL. That's cute. Except the robber has a gun to head the whole time, he's actually robbing you, and if he doesn't get to do his bad deed, you'll die instantly. As opposed to, God has no gun to your head (an ultimatium, yes. gun, no), He's not robbing you of anything, and He's not committing a bad deed.

I'll admit, it's clever.

I have no words for this logic.

The logic is that you are looking at heaven as an expectation not as a reward. Heaven is a reward for doing as God asks. The most basic view of hell is separation from God for eternity, which is what I believe happens if all you've done wrong is not love him.

I disagree. I'm not sure how you can claim that we bring it on ourselves when God has preordained what we're going to do by virtue of creating us and knowing what we'll do. If God chooses all of the parameters of my creation, then He knows exactly what I'm going to do and has effectively made my decisions for me. He never had to create anyone that He knew would go to Hell, but He still does.[/quote]
Your argument only applies if you don't believe in free will though. Free will is one of the most core tenants of the christian faith. To start on the assumption that it does not exist to argue against the faith is as silly as starting on the assumption that oranges are not orange in order to prove that oranges are not orange.

There's a difference between "I know what you are going to do next" and "I programmed you to be this way". Maybe (wild theory coming), we're the self-evolving AI to God's programming skills? (Yes, I know the rebuttals are coming )

Sure, there's a difference, but when you set up the system and know the outcome, it's effectively the same thing. If God knows I'm going to Hell in the end, there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. I can't choose to not go to Hell if God knows I'm going there, you see?

It makes the decisions pointless. Maybe I choose to follow Him and don't go to Hell. Maybe I don't. In the end it doesn't matter, God knew what I was going to do and might as well have forced me.

Besides, if God did create me, didn't he program me to be like I am?


[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes']
LOL. That's cute. Except the robber has a gun to head the whole time, he's actually robbing you, and if he doesn't get to do his bad deed, you'll die instantly. As opposed to, God has no gun to your head (an ultimatium, yes. gun, no), He's not robbing you of anything, and He's not committing a bad deed.

I'll admit, it's clever.

[/quote]

I dunno... God is robbing me of my time and making rules that I might otherwise not follow (i.e. buying that cake on Sunday). You could argue that God is the worse of the two here since He's very subtle about His threats (only through proxies who are of dubious trustworthiness), and if the robber kills you, that's that. If God sends you to Hell, you experience torment forever.

I think we again got into details when we still have no evidence for god.

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1311605979' post='4840012']
The way she presents it is kind of begging the question as she is using an empty jar to prove that the jar is empty when she should be using a jar whose contents are unknown.

How do you know both jars are empty?
[/quote]
I watched her explain it on youtube and she uses two empty jars. The fact that she assumes that the jar has the same traits as the empty jar is also an indicator that she assumes it is empty before she has started.
[/quote]
I think you didn't get my question. Doesn't matter what she said. How do you know that the other jar does not contain a transcendent dice?

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1311683448' post='4840477']
I watched her explain it on youtube and she uses two empty jars. The fact that she assumes that the jar has the same traits as the empty jar is also an indicator that she assumes it is empty before she has started.

I think you didn't get my question. Doesn't matter what she said. How do you know that the other jar does not contain a transcendent dice?
[/quote]

In my counter-example or her example?