[quote name='Telgin' timestamp='1311630813' post='4840214']I skimmed the thread up to this point and haven't seen anyone address the other part of my post though. I still don't see how one can reconcile an omniscient god with punishment for bad behavior. Free will doesn't even have to be part of the equation.

I doubt anyone will find this to be a good answer. But I liken this to a parent and child. Parent knows that given certain conditions (whatever they may be) that his/her child will be act up and most times will know how that child will act up. However, even knowing this when the child does act up, the parent will give due punishment. So though the parent knows, has told the child not to act up, also knows that the environment the child is in will cause that child to act up, the parent will still punish the child (we'll ignore severity for at this moment). So this is how I see God as omniscient and people having free will and the interaction of the two. Again, you'll probably not like the explanation or outright reject, but this is how I see that part of the relationship/interaction.
[/quote]

I would argue that this works for humans but doesn't work for God because it's His fault that someone does something against His will. My parents never made me misbehave, although like you said, they knew full well when I might have done something wrong and did punish me for it.

The problem is that God set up any circumstances that causes someone to do something against His will. He supposedly created the universe from its beginning until its end, did He not?

Of course, one could argue that this is beside the point. Some people argue that He makes us endure things to make us stronger. I might could almost buy that if it wasn't for the other issues involved (i.e. why is there anything such as evil in the beginning, and don't say it's our fault because again, God had to know what we'd do and made us in a way that we would...).

My problem with it all is in relation to the original topic of discussion here: Revelation says that anyone who doesn't do what God says will burn in torment eternally. That isn't something God does to make us stronger. It just makes no sense that an all loving God would create people specifically to send to Hell (and I can't see it any other way given the typical depiction of an all knowing, all powerful, all loving god).

[quote name='Roots' timestamp='1311687802' post='4840517']
Because people take action on their faith. There are people who state that 9/11 or Hurricane Katrina were punishment from God due to America's tolerance of homosexuals. That's fucking disgraceful and hateful to make that sort of claim and then have nothing to back it up except "faith". People use faith to justify all sorts of horrible things on a daily basis. Of course people also credit their faith with doing good things as well, but in my eyes the bad far outweighs the good when it comes to the result of people having faith. How many people are murdered every day around the world because of faith in a spiritual teaching or holy text that says that certain types of people or forms of behavior should not be tolerated by society?

People do disgraceful and hateful things in the name of EVERYTHING. You can't single out religion because people can be hateful and cruel; specifically a religion that is quite firm on it's negative standpoint toward hatefulness regardless of who it is you are hating. Doing things in the name of a religion is not the same as the religion condoning those actions.[/quote]
I agree.

However, there are passages in the NT, post Gospel (Romans I believe, but not sure), that condemn homosexuality. Quite damningly actually. So Christians who do say the horrible things about gays use the Bible to back it up.

[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1311633477' post='4840232']
[quote name='Telgin' timestamp='1311630813' post='4840214']I skimmed the thread up to this point and haven't seen anyone address the other part of my post though. I still don't see how one can reconcile an omniscient god with punishment for bad behavior. Free will doesn't even have to be part of the equation.

I doubt anyone will find this to be a good answer. But I liken this to a parent and child. Parent knows that given certain conditions (whatever they may be) that his/her child will be act up and most times will know how that child will act up. However, even knowing this when the child does act up, the parent will give due punishment. So though the parent knows, has told the child not to act up, also knows that the environment the child is in will cause that child to act up, the parent will still punish the child (we'll ignore severity for at this moment). So this is how I see God as omniscient and people having free will and the interaction of the two. Again, you'll probably not like the explanation or outright reject, but this is how I see that part of the relationship/interaction.
[/quote]

I would argue that this works for humans but doesn't work for God because it's His fault that someone does something against His will. My parents never made me misbehave, although like you said, they knew full well when I might have done something wrong and did punish me for it.

The problem is that God set up any circumstances that causes someone to do something against His will. He supposedly created the universe from its beginning until its end, did He not?[/quote]
You were born and your parents already had a house set. Crib bought. TV. Food. Toys. Etc. (Fast forward a few years) In theory, your parents had things in the house that would cause you to do bad. You wanted cake. You stared at the cake. Your mom saw you staring at the cake. Your mom put the cake on the table. And put in a place you could reach. Badness ensued. You got punished. Would you accuse your mother of entrapment? (lol)

(The rest of your post, I hope to remember to get to later)

[quote name='Telgin' timestamp='1311689782' post='4840539']
[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1311633477' post='4840232']
[quote name='Telgin' timestamp='1311630813' post='4840214']I skimmed the thread up to this point and haven't seen anyone address the other part of my post though. I still don't see how one can reconcile an omniscient god with punishment for bad behavior. Free will doesn't even have to be part of the equation.

I doubt anyone will find this to be a good answer. But I liken this to a parent and child. Parent knows that given certain conditions (whatever they may be) that his/her child will be act up and most times will know how that child will act up. However, even knowing this when the child does act up, the parent will give due punishment. So though the parent knows, has told the child not to act up, also knows that the environment the child is in will cause that child to act up, the parent will still punish the child (we'll ignore severity for at this moment). So this is how I see God as omniscient and people having free will and the interaction of the two. Again, you'll probably not like the explanation or outright reject, but this is how I see that part of the relationship/interaction.
[/quote]

I would argue that this works for humans but doesn't work for God because it's His fault that someone does something against His will. My parents never made me misbehave, although like you said, they knew full well when I might have done something wrong and did punish me for it.

The problem is that God set up any circumstances that causes someone to do something against His will. He supposedly created the universe from its beginning until its end, did He not?[/quote]
You were born and your parents already had a house set. Crib bought. TV. Food. Toys. Etc. (Fast forward a few years) In theory, your parents had things in the house that would cause you to do bad. You wanted cake. You stared at the cake. Your mom saw you staring at the cake. Your mom put the cake on the table. And put in a place you could reach. Badness ensued. You got punished. Would you accuse your mother of entrapment? (lol)

(The rest of your post, I hope to remember to get to later)
[/quote]

No, but there's still two differences:

1. My mom didn't literally force me to do anything bad
2. My mom didn't burn me eternally for messing with the cake

As I said, anything that happens, anything at all is God's doing, because He created the universe down to the last detail. Therefore, He forced me to do anything that I do, including things He told me not to (and things He'd burn me eternally for doing!).

My mom might know I'd mess with the cake if she put it in front of me, but she still didn't make me do it. It could even reasonably be a lesson to me. But like I said earlier, God's punishment of Hell is not a lesson to teach anyone (what would be the point if it's eternal?) but He would still effectively be forcing people to go there.

No, but there's still two differences:

1. My mom didn't literally force me to do anything bad
2. My mom didn't burn me eternally for messing with the cake

How do you know God will burn you eternally for messing with his cake?

As I said, anything that happens, anything at all is God's doing, because He created the universe down to the last detail. Therefore, He forced me to do anything that I do, including things He told me not to (and things He'd burn me eternally for doing!).
[/quote]

He gave you free will though. He forces you to do nothing because it is his gift to you that you be able to make your choice.

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1311688507' post='4840529']
[quote name='Roots' timestamp='1311687802' post='4840517']
Because people take action on their faith. There are people who state that 9/11 or Hurricane Katrina were punishment from God due to America's tolerance of homosexuals. That's fucking disgraceful and hateful to make that sort of claim and then have nothing to back it up except "faith". People use faith to justify all sorts of horrible things on a daily basis. Of course people also credit their faith with doing good things as well, but in my eyes the bad far outweighs the good when it comes to the result of people having faith. How many people are murdered every day around the world because of faith in a spiritual teaching or holy text that says that certain types of people or forms of behavior should not be tolerated by society?

People do disgraceful and hateful things in the name of EVERYTHING. You can't single out religion because people can be hateful and cruel; specifically a religion that is quite firm on it's negative standpoint toward hatefulness regardless of who it is you are hating. Doing things in the name of a religion is not the same as the religion condoning those actions.[/quote]
I agree.

However, there are passages in the NT, post Gospel (Romans I believe, but not sure), that condemn homosexuality. Quite damningly actually. So Christians who do say the horrible things about gays use the Bible to back it up.
[/quote]

Correct. However, 'do not judge or you shall be judged; do not condemn or you shall be condemned' is above all. Of course, most self-righteous pricks forget that passage all the time.

There are weird things all over. People in courts swear on the Bible, which, if you open it, contains a passage of Jesus explicitly saying do not swear at all, 'let yes be yes and no be no; anything else comes from the evil one'. Heh.

How do you know God will burn you eternally for messing with his cake?

Depends on if He told me not to I suppose. The bottom line is that pretty much every Christian I've ever talked to agreed that if you sin, you go to Hell. They also agree that Hell is everlasting burning torment. Sin is typically defined as doing anything against God, which would agree messing with his cake if He told me not to. Or any number of other things, like buying said cake on Sunday (or whatever day your consider to be the Sabbath). The Bible seems reasonably clear on all of this to me.

He gave you free will though. He forces you to do nothing because it is his gift to you that you be able to make your choice.

And as I (as well as a few others) have tried to argue up to this point, we don't have free will. Even barring the concept of determinism, God knows everything, including the future and so knows precisely what I'm going to do in the end. If all of my decisions have been made for me, when did free will happen? God created me knowing all my decisions, which could easily be read as God created my decisions for me. I can't see any other way to interpret that.

The ultimate point I've been driving at, is that for any of this to make sense to me, one of the following has to be false:

1. God is all knowing
2. God is all loving
3. Hell exists and humans are sent there for disobeying God

If God isn't all knowing, then maybe He doesn't know what I'm going to do and my decisions might matter. If God isn't all loving, perhaps He doesn't care that we suffer eternally for possibly the smallest infraction. If Hell doesn't exist, then perhaps God does know that I will do things He doesn't want, but He won't punish me forever for it since I had no say in the matter really.

Based on other evidence in the Bible, I'd say either #2 or #3 is most likely to be false, if any are.

People do disgraceful and hateful things in the name of EVERYTHING. You can't single out religion because people can be hateful and cruel; specifically a religion that is quite firm on it's negative standpoint toward hatefulness regardless of who it is you are hating. Doing things in the name of a religion is not the same as the religion condoning those actions.

Of course they do. Why can't I single out religion for this? Can you give me a good reason? Do I have to give equal attention to other factors that cause evil deeds like political ideologies and racism as well? This is a thread about religion, so of course I'm going to single out religion! It doesn't matter whether or not the religion condones those actions. It enables the person(s) involved to commit their crimes in the first place.

Here's an example from recent memory. I have a very dear friend who is a fundamentalist Christian. We were discussing her beliefs and one day I asked her that if God told her to go to the nearest elementary school and indiscriminately kill as many children as she could, would she do it? Without hesitation, she said that yes she would. I followed up by asking her then how would she not be any different from an Islamic jihadist. She said "well they're not actually killing for God".

So you see, religion has already created the capacity for my friend to commit an evil act that I otherwise would never dream that she would do. All that she needs is to "think" that God has told her to do this and it will be done. The human brain is not a flawless computing mechanism. Hallucinations can happen to believer and non-believer alike. If she were in an accident and suffered brain damage, she could be more susceptible to having this sort of dellusion. And she could even use her bible to justify killing me, her good friend, as the bible specifically instructs that all non-believers must be put to death (Deuteronomy 13:6-10).

If you want to reproduce a result, you need verifiable and falsifiable evidence that anyone could reproduce if they were inclined to do so

And how do you get verifiable and falsifiable evidence that anyone can reproduce if they are inclined to do so if the people you are trying to convince are not inclined to do so? It's really simple to get your own evidence; all you have to do is pray with an open mind and an open heart.
[/quote]

Oh really? Because I have done exactly what you have said and I found nothing. I have talked to others who have done what you said and found nothing. And even more starking to counter your claim, there are people who have done what you said and found something different than what you did (Allah, Vishnu, etc.). It is sheer idiocy to suggest that anyone can get a similar experience to yours and find the same god you did simply by praying. You know this is false, come on.

A common answer from an apologist is either to accuse the person of not being truly sincere, or to be a liar, or "well God must have a reason". The most face-palm thing I've heard someone say is "well first you have to believe that its true". That's stupid. You don't believe something is true and then go find evidence for it. You find evidence for something and then form your beliefs based on the evaluation of said evidence. Reminds me of this comic:

http://i164.photobuc...remoteImage.gif

The ultimate point I've been driving at, is that for any of this to make sense to me, one of the following has to be false:

1. God is all knowing
2. God is all loving
3. Hell exists and humans are sent there for disobeying God

You forgot one:
4. God does not exist.


Actually what you wrote there reminded me of a post I wrote on my blog very similar to this a couple years ago. I asked myself "Does God love me?" and did a logical assessment of this question. I'm going to post it below and I'd be very interested to hear a response from any believers.

----------------------------

No video clip to share tonight, but I do want to share something that popped into my head the other day. I asked myself "If God exists, does He really love me?". I thought about this long and hard, based on what properties I "know" about the Christian God and did a logical assessment of this question to see if I could arrive at an answer, or at least get close to one. Here's my logical analysis in a bulleted list format, first with several assumptions stated.

• Assumption A: God exists
• Assumption B: God is omniscient (knows everything)
• Assumption C: God is omnipotent (able to do anything)
• Assumption D: God is omnibenevolent (possesses infinite benevolence)
• Assumption E: All humans who do not believe in God will go to hell for all eternity (also: hell exists)
  
  1. I do not believe in God, primarily because of a lack of evidence to support the claim that He exists. (And contradictory to what some theists might think, I am totally willing to change my mind if I am provided sufficient evidence to believe).
  2. Because of God's omniscience, He knows precisely what it would take for me to become a believer
  3. Because of God's omnipotence, He is in no way prohibited from providing me with the proof I need
  4. Because of God's omnibenevolence, He should desire for me to become a believer so that I would not go to hell (which by the way, this omnibenevolent being created).
  5. God has not shown me sufficient evidence to support His existence, although many others around the world claim that he has revealed Himself to them in a manner sufficient for them to believe.
  6. Therefore one or more of the five assumptions must be false, or some other condition I am unaware about is in effect (explained below).
  
  Analysis of False Assumptions
  
  Lets take a look at these one at a time. If assumption A is false and God does not exist, then all of the other assumptions are also false. Pretty simple, although not a nice outcome for everyone who does believe.
  
  If assumption B is false and God is not all-knowing, then the reason God hasn't revealed himself to me is that he doesn't know how to convince me that he is real. This concept seems a little silly to me though that he can be all-powerful but not all-knowing. If he had the power to make me believe in Him, then why wouldn't he do it? Oh that's right, its because he's omnibenevolent and loves his creations so much that he gave us free will. Including the free will to damn ourselves and suffer eternal torment and torture after death. Speaking personally, I wouldn't exactly call that love...especially since he can change the rules (he is God after all) so I wouldn't go to hell at all.
  
  If assumption C is false and God is not all-powerful, God knows what I need to believe and wants me to believe so that I can be "saved", but is unable to. That kind of sucks. I mean, he had the power to create the universe and everything in it, right? But he doesn't have the power to provide sufficient evidence of His existence to an open-minded human being like myself? Seems kind of far fetched to think that only this assumption is false.
  
  If assumption D is false and God is not omnibenevolent, well then that would pretty much say right there that God does not love me. You know, I think it actually makes a lot of sense if this assumption is false. I mean, God created hell just like he created heaven, Earth, and absolutely everything right? Well what purpose does an omnibenevolent creator have for making a place like hell where people suffer infinite punishment for finite "crimes" in their mortal life (where that crime can be as simple as not believing in the right God)? That doesn't seem like the actions of an omnibenevolent God, or even a good God. That seems like the behavior of an evil, vengeful, immoral God. But again that's just my opinion.
  
  If assumption E is false and hell does not exist, then maybe God doesn't really care what we believe at all if he's not going to punish anyone after death. If E is false, that may also indicate that heaven does not exist, or it may not. I heard in a recent Pew poll that a surprisingly disproportionate number of people believed in heaven but not in hell (more believed in heaven than believed in hell). I also heard that many Christians do not believe that atheists will go to hell either (phew, hope they're right about that one!). I really wish I had a link to these poll results but I haven't been able to find it yet, I just heard about it on a recent episode of The Atheist Experience. I'll talk about it in a future post though, and I'll be sure to find the link then. Anyway, if E is false then that would explain how God could be both willing and able to prove his existence to me, loves me, but has not provided me with the evidence that I require.
  
  Like I said one or more of these five assumptions should be false, so which one is it? Well obviously I'm biased into thinking it is assumption A (and hence all the rest), but I don't want to let my personal bias effect this, so for sake of argument lets say that assumption A holds true. Assumption B's falsehood doesn't make much sense and neither does assumption C. In fact, thinking about it both B and C seem to be kind of intertwined with one another. How can you be all-knowing without being all-powerful, or vice-versa? So lets rule both of those out. That leaves us with D and E. Assumption D could lead us to conclude that God is not a good God, or at least does not possess infinite kindness, which is why he doesn't love me and why I'm going to go to hell as a result. Assumption E means simply that there is no hell, leaving only heaven or a non-existent state after mortal death (or possibly reincarnation or another option, but lets keep it simple and say its one or the other). So God may know that I'm already going to have the same fate as his followers after my death, and since He sees me living a happy life he feels no need to prove Himself to me (although it would still be nice of him if He did). My personal opinion in the order of most likely to be the false assumption to the least likely is: A - D - E - B - C.
  
  
  Possible Apologetic Counterpoints
  
  Now the falsehoods of those assumptions couldn't possibly explain everything and I'm sure a Christian apologist would be quick to jump in and "correct" my logic. So what are some alternative options for this answer? Well, one could be that God will provide evidence of Himself to me eventually, but just hasn't yet. To which I would respond, what's the wait? There are millions of people younger than I am that he has already proven Himself too. Especially for Him to hold back now, when I am taking a serious look at these sorts of questions, doesn't seem very fair to me. But hey what do I know, I'm only human.
  
  Another argument might be that its not God's fault, but rather it is my fault. Its my fault for setting my standards too high. Really? So I should lower my standards to believe in something without sufficient evidence? If that's the case, then I should be just as ready to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Allah, Shiva, Zeus, etc.. One page I looked through on GotQuestions.org was addressing the question of whether or not there is evidence of God. I didn't read the entire response but I do remember reading a line that said (paraphrasing) "God wants us to believe in him on faith". So, he doesn't want to provide evidence of his existence, yet expects us to believe anyway or otherwise we face the worst punishment possibly imaginable. Well, that's going to be a problem for me. And I reject the notion that it is my fault that I have high standards for what I believe and what I don't believe. After all, before God even made the "rule" that you go to hell if you don't believe in him, he knew that I would eventually be born into this world and I would reject this notion that I have to believe in something without sufficient evidence.
  
  I'm sure there are some other arguments a good apologist could come up with, but those were the two that I immediately thought of.
  
  --------------------------------------------------

Of course they do. Why can't I single out religion for this? Can you give me a good reason?

Because it has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with people being full of hate.