Quote: Original post by stonegiant

Note that I can't watch youtube at work, so I googled for a summary of the video. This video apparently contains testimony from someone who was encouraged by ACORN canvassers to fraudulently register (correct me if my googling came up incorrect). This is not proof of ACORN being a criminal organization.

Did you read the link I provided? Some canvassers for ACORN were committing voting registration fraud. They were found by ACORN and had criminal charges put against them. This is not indicative of conspiracy on ACORN's behalf to commit voter fraud.

From my Associated Press article:

Quote: There was no evidence anyone voted who should not have.

... which means that its unlikely that such voter registration fraud swung the election. Just because you fraudulently registered to vote doesn't mean you're going to be able to actually use those votes.

Also:

Quote: ACORN officials said the group regularly reports suspected fraud to authorities nationwide but the Miami prosecution marks one of the few times the complaints were taken seriously.

Again, the salient point here is that employees are not robots, and sometimes do things that the larger organization does not approve of. Is there any evidence that this was encouraged by ACORN, the organization?

Conservatives have viciously attacked this organization, but all that comes of it are isolated employees doing some bad things. Those bad things didn't effect the elections in any material way.

Edit:

Quote: Original post by stonegiant
Yeah thought so.

Thought so? The accusations in your YouTube video were already covered by the link I dug up. You're going to have to provide something a lot more substantial than that. Using your logic, the Republican party is a criminal organization committing massive voter fraud, because some Republican workers in certain states committed fraud.

Yeah thought so.

I don't have youtube, dah' dah' dah', what a an arse.

Quote: Original post by stonegiant
I don't have youtube, dah' dah' dah', what a an arse.

You might want to lay of the personal attacks if your going to cry fowl to the mods when your targeted.

Quote: Original post by stonegiant
I don't have youtube, dah' dah' dah', what a an arse.

You'll note that I went through the effort of finding a summary of the video and asked for a correction if I was mistaken. Since you have nothing but an insult, I take it that the summary was correct. Have anything to add other than bluster and insults? Like maybe evidence that ACORN, the organization as a whole, is corrupt, rather than a handful of employees being corrupt?

But before I go I must say to the "factmaster".
A written summary of an audio visual presentation is wholy incomplete and exactly why you chose it. Demand a source then avoid the complete source and claim to have beeen exposed to the source, typical.
When you actually see the video it shows, graphs, stats, etc... that are never in a summary, as it is visual graphic info within in a visual medium. And who demands info then reads a summary and feels they can then discuss as if they have the facts at question, how dumb is that? Very.
You are purposefully ignoring facts presented to you, as if that makes you smart, no ignoring facts makes you... good night kiddies.

Quote: Original post by stonegiant
But before I go I must say to the "factmaster".
A written summary of an audio visual presentation is wholy incomplete and exactly why you chose it. Demand a source then avoid the complete source and claim to have beeen exposed to the source, typical.

Dodging? I'm at work and cannot view it. I offered for you to correct or fill in the holes in my summary. You have refused to do so, and instead decided to personally attack me with claims of dishonesty.

Quote: When you actually see the video it shows, graphs, stats, etc... that are never in a summary, as it is visual graphic info within in a visual medium.

I invited you to elaborate. You refused to do so, and preferred to personally insult me.

Quote: And who demands info then reads a summary and feels they can then discuss as if they have the facts at question, how dumb is that? Very.

Nothing in my post indicated that I felt that I had all the facts. I invited you to correct me. That you have decided to levy personal attacks at me rather than take me up on that offer is telling. Who do you think is coming across poorly here: you or me?

Quote: You are purposefully ignoring facts presented to you, as if that makes you smart, no ignoring facts makes you... good night kiddies.

You're accusing me of dishonesty when I simply can't view a video at the moment. I certainly intend to watch it when I am able to.

Rather than spewing bile, it would have been more productive to provide a link that I can view at the moment, correct me, or wait until I have an opportunity to view the video in question.

Quote: Original post by Rycross
Rather than spewing bile, it would have been more productive to provide a link that I can view at the moment, correct me, or wait until I have an opportunity to view the video in question.

He's actually no longer welcome to post in this thread, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

You guys suck at staying on-topic. [smile]

Quote: Original post by BerwynIrish
Yes, and their reasons to date have never been honest.

Past performance is no indicator of future results.

Quote: Even in your inexplicable "let's seriously look at these amateur entrapment videos see what pans out" stance, you seem aware that previous accusations were insubstantial. Why waste your time with the latest accusation from the same dishonest sources?

No, I've got no idea about previous allegations. When I agreed that "the right wing has it in for ACORN," I was going on what I've seen from the right-wing media in the past day or two; a pretty much unified call from the right for ACORN's destruction.

Quote: Did you care one lick about ACORN before the conservative smear machine targeted it?

Nope, I'd never heard of it, save for vague memories of a mention of it some time ago (probably vis a vis the voter registration fraud thing). But so what?

Quote: Do you recognize a vendetta when you see one?

Vendettas aren't relevant. Either the videos paint an accurate picture of ACORN's operations, or they don't; I take it that you think they don't. I'm still making up my mind, but so far I've not heard much to convince me that they don't; all I've heard are arguments about why a lot of people would be happy if they do.

Quote: I thought you were smarter than this.

Ad hominem attacks aren't persuasive.

Quote: Given your interest in ACORN, you should know what they organize people for, and if you don't know, then it's easy enough to look up yourself.

I've learnt a rough idea of what they're for as far as housing loans goes, but I don't really know beyond that. Why, are they doing something that makes the behaviour seen in the videos more acceptable?

Quote: Even if that one employee

Six employees across three states, not one employee. Seven if you count the one who's now claiming she was 'playing along.'

Quote: was genuinely willing to help with a child prostitution ring (a laughable proposition in itself), there is no evidence that ACORN as an organization would endorse, approve, fund, assist, or even not report it to the police.

This is why I asked the last question in my previous post, which you didn't answer. How many employees in an organisation have to exhibit bad behaviour before you'd consider it 'evidence' that there is something wrong with the organization as a whole? Seriously, I think that's a useful question to answer for the general case.

Quote: How many times do you have to swallow conservative lies which make you deathly ill before you can recognize the signs that you're being lied to?

If I'd swallowed them, would I be here looking for evidence to contradict them? I came here looking for the statement referred to by the guy on O'Reilly, the statement by the film-makers that they'd tried loads of other offices and been turned away / had the cops called. If that actually happened, then it exposes the move for what it is - a cheap media stunt to try and destroy an imperfect - but what isn't? - organisation through creating a PR disaster for them.

What part of what I'm actually basing my judgement on - the videos, plus the statements released by ACORN, not the cackling of the right-wing commentators - are 'conservative lies?' Do you think that the videos are fake?

(Meta: The level of hysteria in this thread has surprised me a bit. Surely you realise that, if you want somebody to not believe right-wing lies, saying "OH DON'T BELIEVE THEIR LIES" isn't persuasive? It's worse than not saying anything, because it makes it look like it's the best you can come up with.)