Quote: Original post by Mithrandir
Is this going to cause some insane nut out there to try to assassinate him, reasoning that he's being patriotic and killing an illegal president?

Shame this hypothetical nut didn't appear between 2000 and 2004.

As for the natural born citizen argument, I think it's wrong to discriminate amongst your citizen based on something as arbitrary as birthplace. If someone makes the commitment to become a citizen of your country, once they are accepted, they should have the same rights as any other citizen. Interestingly, a few years ago I saw Ted Kennedy discussing this and arguing for the removal of this clause. Funny, considering his niece is married to a certain governator [grin]

Quote: Original post by Yann L
A) An illegal immigrant gives birth to a child on US soil, while being illegally in the country (duh). As far as I understand, the child will automatically get US citizenship in this case. He was born in the US, and can therefore become president. Even if he has no further connections or doesn't feel any kind of 'loyalty' for the US.

He can legally become president, but he'll never get elected. The absence of extensive participation in the "American experience," and an insufficient fervor to American jingoism will do him in by the Florida primary, for sure. Fundamentally, however, the citizenship of the parent(s) are irrelevant, as established in 1898 by United States v. Wong Kim Ark.

Quote: B) Legal US citizens get their child while being on vacation abroad (maybe due to an unforeseen medical complication). The child was not born in the US, so it will never be able to become US president.

Incorrect. John McCain, after all, was born in Panama.

Quote: Original post by ChaosEngine
Shame this hypothetical nut didn't appear between 2000 and 2004.

I don't think it's appropriate to advocate the killing of any president. A commitment to the principles of democracy means rolling with the punches when your guy loses, and committing to coming back four years later to vote the winner out.

Quote: As for the natural born citizen argument, I think it's wrong to discriminate amongst your citizen based on something as arbitrary as birthplace. If someone makes the commitment to become a citizen of your country, once they are accepted, they should have the same rights as any other citizen.

Would you be comfortable having someone who naturalized as an adult and had a previous citizenship relationship with (and thus some allegiance to) a foreign country become the Command-in-Chief of your armed forces, possessor of the nuclear launch codes and your primary representative in negotiations with that country?

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Quote: B) Legal US citizens get their child while being on vacation abroad (maybe due to an unforeseen medical complication). The child was not born in the US, so it will never be able to become US president.

Incorrect. John McCain, after all, was born in Panama.

OK. But what are the criteria then ? How can one candidate be born outside of the US without any issues whatsoever, while the unfounded allegations about the birth place of Obama are generating such a fuzz ?

Quote: Original post by Yann L

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Quote: B) Legal US citizens get their child while being on vacation abroad (maybe due to an unforeseen medical complication). The child was not born in the US, so it will never be able to become US president.

Incorrect. John McCain, after all, was born in Panama.

OK. But what are the criteria then ? How can one candidate be born outside of the US without any issues whatsoever, while the unfounded allegations about the birth place of Obama are generating such a fuzz ?

As far as I understand, his birth in the Panama Canal Zone was on a military base of some kind which yada yada technicality.

It did get brought up during the election.

Quote: "They ought to have the same rights," said Don Nickles, a former Republican senator from Oklahoma who in 2004 introduced legislation that would have established that children born abroad to American citizens could harbor presidential ambitions without a legal cloud over their hopes. "There is some ambiguity because there has never been a court case on what 'natural-born citizen' means."

Hmm.

Quote: Original post by Yann L

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Quote: B) Legal US citizens get their child while being on vacation abroad (maybe due to an unforeseen medical complication). The child was not born in the US, so it will never be able to become US president.

Incorrect. John McCain, after all, was born in Panama.

OK. But what are the criteria then ? How can one candidate be born outside of the US without any issues whatsoever, while the unfounded allegations about the birth place of Obama are generating such a fuzz ?

Acctually this is an open constitutional question. Natural born is not defined in the constitution and the courts have not yet defined it. So it could be he could be elected, or it could be the courts would block him. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen_of_the_United_States) for a run down on the various court cases and state department policies.

As far as John McCain goes however, some people argued that since he was born on a US miltary base it counted as being born on US soil and so he was eligable to hold office. There was even a resolution in the senate that passed endorsing his legal right to run, but the courts did not rule on it.

Quote: Original post by Yann L

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Quote: B) Legal US citizens get their child while being on vacation abroad (maybe due to an unforeseen medical complication). The child was not born in the US, so it will never be able to become US president.

Incorrect. John McCain, after all, was born in Panama.

OK. But what are the criteria then ? How can one candidate be born outside of the US without any issues whatsoever, while the unfounded allegations about the birth place of Obama are generating such a fuzz ?

The constitution doesn't actually lay down criteria for the precise definition of "natural born citizen." As a result, quite a number of presidents and candidates have had the validity of their election/candidacy questioned over the years. In fact, John McCain did have issues regarding his citizenship, requiring a bi-partisan legal review and a unanimous but non-binding Senate resolution that declared him a natural born citizen, but none so severe as Barack Obama because, well, he's white and his name is "John McCain," not "Barack Hussein Obama" (which jus' ain't 'Murkin, y'know?")

So, yeah, it's kinda bullshit.

Quote: Original post by laeuchli
As far as John McCain goes however, some people argued that since he was born on a US miltary base it counted as being born on US soil and so he was eligable to hold office.

Note that the former unincorporated territory Panama Canal Zone and its military facilities were not regarded as United States territory:

Quote: US Foreign Affairs Manual, 7 FAM §1116.1-4: "Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to U.S. jurisdiction and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Quote: Original post by laeuchli
As far as John McCain goes however, some people argued that since he was born on a US miltary base it counted as being born on US soil and so he was eligable to hold office.

Note that the former unincorporated territory Panama Canal Zone and its military facilities were not regarded as United States territory:

Quote: US Foreign Affairs Manual, 7 FAM §1116.1-4: "Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to U.S. jurisdiction and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."

Ah good point..perhaps I misremember the reasons people used for stating that McCain was eligable....I just remember vaguly it was something along those lines..I suppose I should have looked up the exact argument before mentioning it.

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi
Would you be comfortable having someone who naturalized as an adult and had a previous citizenship relationship with (and thus some allegiance to) a foreign country become the Command-in-Chief of your armed forces, possessor of the nuclear launch codes and your primary representative in negotiations with that country?

Would you be comfortable having someone who was born in the United States, was a complete moron never capable of holding any job, had/has a drug and drinking problem and really believes that God was talking to him?

If you were born in another country, became a citizen and showed true patriotism to your new country...why would it matter? It isn't like the commander-in-chief can just hand over the nuclear football to [insert his/her native country here].