Hello everybody. I don''t know what the general sort is that congregates here - a lot of you, from looking at the other posts, seem to be interested most in designing RPGs and Sims, the sort of games which requires a lot of detailed, complex organization. These are games which take a long, long time to play and complete (if it is the sort that is completed according to the conventional meaning) and even longer to design and create (assuming they ever get to the creation stage, heh). There are, of course, many very different kinds of games...and I hope that you people haven''t been forsaking them. Remember the first games that popped up were always fast action games; they could be developed quickly since they involved simple worlds with simple rules. One could just define the laws of the game universe and then...let things go. This can be said of any game, to an extent, but even moreso for these fast action games. There is something pure and simple about devising such a game. Since, by definition, it is fairly simple, there is not much to work with. Think of a short story; while it may not have the length and depth of a novel, it can still be an entertaining and insightful read. There is a limited amount of space in a short story, akin to the limited amount of design space for thinking up one of these fast action games. There is a sort of finesse in designing a game with so few parts, yet making these parts run so very, extraordinarily smoothly together that none can deny that the game was designed magnificently... Specifically, I mean to refer to the Fighting Game. Fighting games are one of my many favorite types of games, and I do love playing them, especially at my local arcade, when I do go (not often enough, I''m afraid). I have seen many different styles, such as early Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat and X-Men vs Street Fighter and Tekken and Toshinden and the hundreds that I am sure I am forgetting, the list doesn''t need to extend indefinitely, you get the gist. My personal favorite are the Street Fighter anime styles; I love seeing guys fly all over the place and huge energy attacks - I just love it. 3D fighting games are good too, though they do interestingly have a very different feel to them...I''d like to see a 3D fighting game with the feel of a 2D fighting game, sometime. Anyhow, I am a game programmer, a game designer who decided to give up on the idea of just designing, who then found a deep love and passion for coding...Recently I have come to the decision that yes, I am ready. I am ready to make a truly awesome fighting game. I intend for it to be employing 3D graphics using OpenGL, and I intend to take advantage of the fact that the world is 3D, without detracting from the nature of the game at all. Naturally enough, I''m aiming for a Street Fighter anime sort of feel to the gameplay, though I intend to add some Matrix flair to it, as well as various different things...I look forward to having a lot of fun with camera tricks, putting in lots of lighting and particle effects, etc. Of course, first and foremost comes the requirement that the game should be fun. Isn''t that the goal of any game? Imho, if your answer to that question is anything but a flat out yes, you''ve got a lot to learn about game design. Anyways, the question comes up about fighting games: what makes such a game the most fun? In my quest to make the ideal fighting game, I''m trying to take into account what everybody likes the best. So then, to you, game designers, I pose this question: What do you think would make for the perfect fighting game? Any and all features, ideas, fighting styles, controls, etc...Whatever you can think of that would be beneficial in my quest to discover what I should hone my skills on creating. I will be developing this for the PC, just so you know, it will require hardware acceleration (OpenGL) it will be 3D, and will make use of the fact that it is 3D, by allowing you to somehow move along more than one horizontal axis... So then, what would make for the ideal fighting game? Thank you for your time. - Hai, watashi no chichi no kuruma ga oishikatta desu! ...or, in other words, "Yes, my dad''s car was deliscious!"

Fun? Try controls first. IMO the number one factor that made StreetFighter II (The World Warrior through Super SF2 Turbo) King of the Arcades was the simplicity yet depth of the control system. 3 punch buttons, 3 kick buttons (early arcade versions had pressure sensitive buttons, but they got mashed too quickly), not a variety of hold and block buttons like we have today. Obviously, the level of realism in SF is way lower than, say, Tekken, but the fights were more fun and required fewer visual effects to impress.

I suggest bringing back simplicty: block standing (high), block crouching (low); attack standing (high), attack crouching (low); soft, medium and hard attacks; no "unblockables" except for grabs. No air juggles. Simple varied attacks that can be strung together into combos by the gamer , not by the game.

Of course, these suggestions are based on your desire to create a 2D fighting game set in 3D - sort of. If you were trying to make a pure 3D fighter with a distinctive style all its own, I would have made totally different comments.

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Those who can do nothing criticize; those who can, critique.

Indeed, simplicity of the controls is very important. However, there is one other, very important thing: the animations. When you have simple controls, you only have a few kicks and punches. The average player will also choose their favourite kicks and punches.

Now, it is very, very, very boring to see your character to the same move over and over and over and over again... So, for every simgle attack, their should be many different animations, perhaps even choose pseudo-random attacks with different damage... Heck, when you kick someone, you''ll never know how hard you''ll hit him!

Well, don''t get me wrong - of course I do want something new. I have some interesting gameplay ideas including possibly allowing for more than two fighters in a match...

As far as controls go, I do indeed agree. Simple, yet powerful...One idea I had had was for something along the lines of, for example, punch buttons...Instead of having two different kinds of strengths for punches, one could have a punch button for each arm, and some fighters would be right handed, whereas others would be left handed...You see where I''m going with this. I think it would add a lot to the game for many different aspects of the characters to affect how you play. I also intend to have fighters sometimes differ greatly in size and mass, as that could lead to some interesting results, when we get to playing with physics...

As for randomness, I do agree...Things can sometimes become too static and boring. I intend to have several different sort of camera animations for any particular type of event, and it should randomly pick one that''s appropriate at the time...I don''t like the idea of random character movement though, gameplay-wise, as that starts to get away from the player having control over what their character does. Random animations is a different matter...And it does indeed sound like a good idea.

Feel free to say any ideas you have for any issues relating to what would make for any sort of cool fighting game, not necessarily just 3D, not necessarily tried and true. I''d be very interested in hearing about unorthodox ideas...

- Hai, watashi no chichi no kuruma ga oishikatta desu!
...or, in other words, "Yes, my dad''s car was deliscious!"

Blimey, there's millions of things I could say here.

However, I'm going to raise one point which I think is key. People are always designing beat 'em ups for the arcade. That might sound a little daft so maybe it requires a bit more explaination.

There is a major difference between playing a game in an arcade and playing a game at home on a console or PC. That's a whole topic in itself, but in principle - a title for a home machine requires more depth and long-term appeal. Very few current fighting games provide this... instead they emulate their arcade counterparts and fail to provide decent longevity.

Home fighting games should be deceptively simple, being easy to pick up and play but requiring a lot of time to truly master. They should be everything the arcade version is, but also much more.

I hope that made sense. If you think about every aspect of the current crop of fighting games - you'll find things to improve or change. I wrote a *long* document on this but can't find it now.

E

Edited by - Eight on May 21, 2001 5:27:20 AM

I am also designing a 3D fighter, although I''m designing for more of a 3D feel, but if you want to examine an intuitive control interface for 3D combat, check out the recent game Oni. Oni''s control system has only punch and kick (left and right mouse buttons) and seperate keys for foward, back, left, right, jump, and crouch. The veiw is over the shoulder, and the mouse rotates the character to the left or right and allows for looking up or down. I know that this has more of a 3D feel (which is why I''m using it as a model for my game), but I think it could be adapted to what you are looking for as far as more than one axis of horizontal movement. The combos in Oni are simple, yet versitile, requiring no more than 4 keypresses designed in a comfortable manner. You have a ton of control over what your character can do, the game uses anime style art, and many of the moves (like jumping really far) are very ala Matrix. The controls take a little time to get used to, but once you do, I''m still amazed at the many moves you can do on the fly. I think it might be worth your looking into Bucket_Head. Anyway that''s my two cents.

It has been only one PC fighting game which drove me crazy, Mortal Kombat III, and I dont know why, I just loved it.

About 3D fighting games, I dont like them very much, they seems very unrealistic, too linear, the flesh of the characters looks too much solid, unbreakable. I would like to see a punch sinking in a stomach, a cheek getting pink and red after receiving a strike, If a character receive a hit on an arm... why he can use it as if it were fully healtly? Hit your shoulder with a hammer and try to handshake someone, you can''t.

That kind of things I would like to see in a fighting game, like Dragon Ball cartoon fightings, they loose they body parts and keep fighting but they bleed and their faces shows their pain, they sourprise... I don''t know... feelings.

Another thing I think it''s important is to study the movements of kung-fu to be able to devise more realistic movements. Maybe it could be a good idea to watch some Bruce Lee movies before working on the characters movements.

What about a body-state-graphic at the sides of the screen to show the state of your body? (remember you loose acuracy if you get striked in your body parts, like Deus-Ex), then you should need to figure and change your strategy during the fight, because your left leg and your right arm are unusefull. Maybe the only way to win is to trow some knifes with your good arm and kick some stones over the guy is trying to kill you, maybe you have to scape!, it''s just an idea.
Well, I should be working now. Good luck with your game, and dont forget to e-mail me a copy when you finish it.

xaxa

PS: I think the time limit for a fight is good with arcade machines that work with coins... But, in a real fight the limit is the death of you oponent or your own. Don''t put a clock at the top of the screen, it has no meaning when you have all the day to fight.

xaxa -

I think you are overcomplicating this way too much, the great thing about these games IS the simplicity. You describe them as "very unrealistic" but again that is one of the great things about them, the increadible strength and ability you feel, realism spealism

I just seams like you asking for something from these games that they were just never meant to supply

OK, for a fighting game you need two things:

a: Human competition. If your game is going to be a PC game include internet play. Fighting games are made for two players.

b: It has to be fun for beginners and experts. This means it has to have some flash and intial charm, and it also has to have some balance.

As far as control goes, randomness is a VERY BAD idea. The point of fighting games is competition. If a player wins or loses based on something arbitrary they won''t be having a lot of fun. (The game may be fun for the very beginner, but others will quickly get bored from the lack of depth)

Finally, if you are going to make a game similar to existing games play the hell out of them to know what works and doesn''t.

James M

I was a Tekken 2 fiend for awhile (loved the God of War, can't remember his name tho')

Would love to see a bit more short-term strategy. Fighting games have set strategies as surely as any pure strategy game. But the control strings suck!!!! You mention that you don't want to make an overly complex game like an RPG. Fighting games can be just as bad when they require you to memorize these huge strings of commands. While I did like that in Tekken 2 a series of commands put you in a certain stance or started a certain strategy, I'd love for these to be more "beer and pretzels" so us old geezers can still play.

I see tag-team battles becoming more popular (the Star Wars fighting game does this). I'd like to see more "offscreen" actions you could take in a similar vein. I imagine, for instance, playing your typical svelte, fast but weak female character with a huge mechanical dog which she can tag in to counter strong moves... or whatever...

Have powerups ever been introduced to the arena? I can't remember a fighting game that does this.

I'd be interested in also seeing more destructable scenery, and roving terrain. Rather than restricting you to one arena, you get a much bigger one where you could jump on / off of scenery, throw other characters through it (like the old Ninja Gaiden sidescroller, where you could knock a baddie into a fishtank and the fish would come flopping out)

Oh yeah, and a personal request: Ditch the &#$%^! stereotypes, <b>PLEASE!!! </b> If I find one more black person in a fighting game with a huge afro, <b>I'm going to hunt the designer down with a pack of starving rottweilers and use him in a tactical exercise!!! </b> Nothing shows racism better than a designer without a clue. <br><br>--------------------<br>Just waiting for the mothership...<br><br>Edited by - Wavinator on May 22, 2001 8:04:07 PM