Notice that I never said "ALL DESIGNERS HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING BETTER TO DO WITH THEIR TIME" because that would be foolish. I am sure I specifically underlined (though not literally) points like "SOME" and "MOST"... Never in my argument did I ever say "YOU AINT GOT NO HOPE UNLESS YOU HAVE PROGRAMMING OR ARTISTIC TALENT"
Anyway, before I start getting a little bit agressive, I just have to say that I stand by the comment that if you wish to get into a game design job, it will be much easier if you had other skills that you could bring to the development team. Nuff said, and that can''t be argued
I agree about the programmer and artists not not (damn double negatives ) being required. That would just be a foolish assumption. Who is going to be continually debugging the program that creates these programs and art? PROGRAMMERS! And who will be fixing up the blemishes in the art? ARTISTS! You can''t send a machine to do a humans job . But you can use one to help out the human in their job
Oh and I agree with what youre saying dwarf, and that is the reason why this country still doesnt have anyone who can mess with Yu Susuki on the design level and be sucessful. Jack of all trades is great for some things but not for others. Would John Carmack be as an effective programmer if he was designing, but then if you look at Id all they will be releasing from now on is Quake or "Almost Quake" or "Quake+++++" because they look down on designers, sooner or later people will get sick of them. Play of either of the Medal of Honor series or the Perfect Dark series and tell me which are more innovative...ahem when you have real game designers kiddies innovation happens. Not when you have some Jack of all trades with a few good ideas, but im glad that you feel that way, it will make my road easier when I prove the idustry wrong, and everyone is out looking for REAL GAME DESIGNERS, not just Joe programmer with this kinda cool idea. The best ideas come from one person, but they are augmented with little details from other people (ahem EVERQUEST anyone?)
Would John Carmack be as an effective programmer if he was designing, but then if you look at Id all they will be releasing from now on is Quake or "Almost Quake" or "Quake+++++" because they look down on designers, sooner or later people will get sick of them. Play of either of the Medal of Honor series or the Perfect Dark series and tell me which are more innovative...ahem when you have real game designers kiddies innovation happens.
Problem is AngelStar, innovation sometimes doesn''t mean jack. In fact, too much of it can make your game so foreign that even hard core gamers won''t pick it up. They can''t relate.
quote:
Not when you have some Jack of all trades with a few good ideas, but im glad that you feel that way, it will make my road easier when I prove the idustry wrong, and everyone is out looking for REAL GAME DESIGNERS, not just Joe programmer with this kinda cool idea.
Be careful of Little Napoleon Syndrome: You''re unlikely to be the next messiah (unless you actually are). After you break into the industry you''ll have such an appreciation for this. As you can see with just this thread, not everybody likes what you think is the next big thing.
Even the most innovative idea can buckle under a countless different business, market, technical, and timing problems. That doesn''t mean you shouldn''t try it. But it''s easier to recover if you don''t have to eat crow.
-------------------- Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
dwarf, what would you suggest I do? I like programming, but I''m horrible at math... so I can''t really excel there. All I''ve ever wanted to do was to design games, their function and content. I''ve never wanted to be that involved in the actual programming or engine work. I''m 19, I''m in college and I want to know what path I should take to design games... what do I do?
Have you read much material on game design? Also do you know anyone who makes or has made games? Another option is to get a small group of friends together and try to make a very simple game. This will allow you to have insight into what the general knowledge parameters are of making games.
A designer doesnt need to know everything about code, they just have to have an appreciation for its limitations and how those limitations affect features they may wish to include in their design. - Drew
AP, I think I will shake the boundaries of what most people believe programming to be about but, maths is NOT ESSENSTIAL TO PROGRAMMING. You don''t need to be an advanced math wiz, but you do need to know how to add and multiply, subtract and divide. All you need to do, is learn how to manipulate structures and data. I don''t actually use any advanced mathematics in my programs. If you can figure out algebra (which all people who end up passing high school should... because otherwise they have no chance in any job, let alone programming) then you will be fine.
Don''t let anybody tell you that you have to be a mathematics genius to program. Hell, I absolutely flunked out on Integration and all of that, so I myself am proof. I can program better than all of my Uni friends (well, except for one of my new ones).
Anyway. Learn the code, and it is all good. Pointers and structures in C++ are much more important than math
Dwarf is right.. you need to be a better math wiz to design than to code To design.. especially complex 3d type games, you need a big handle on calc and physics. Now work on something like particle acceleration, or a real physics engine.. then you''ve got the hardest bit of math work. Most developers contract others to do this.. which is why they end up being decent. If you try to do it and you don''t know about it.. then it''ll flop. Don''t try to program graphics.. lighting effects, things like that.. require some good math skills But core programming is merely memorization of the language to manipulate data in such a way as to create predictable outcomes. That''s about all you do to program
Aaaahhhhh!! We keep going over the same stupid ground with the same old naive opinions sprinkled in around those who actually know what they''re talking about.
There are more programmers than designers involved in actually making games, because a programmer with no designer can copy an existing game, whereas a designer with no programmer can''t really make anything.
People will realise that the designer is the most important part of the team if and when the designer actually becomes the most important part of the team. Until then, it''s going to depend on what kind of game you''re making.
There is little point arguing what a designer is and what a designer isn''t. Each company has a different job description. Design is a vague term.
Many of the best designers have a background in programming. Several great designers do not. Understanding the components that go into making a computer game (programming is one, art is another, psychology is a third) is going to help a designer. Being naive of the basic components that go into making the game, or worse still, thinking that the other parts of the team are irrelevant when compared to the designer, is going to be a hindrance.
This industry does take game designers seriously. See paragraph 2 and 3 above. It does not take ''Idea Guys'' seriously, and rightly so. There are 100 ideas for every person that is capable of putting a good idea into practise. Once again, see paragraph 2.
Why are we covering this old ground/whipping this dead horse yet again? *pleads to moderator - can''t we start closing some of these... it''s getting pointless...*
i agree that designer tends to be a catchall term. A designer in one company makes the game engine. In another they write the story. To be a "Designer" according the Webster is "one that designs: as
a : one who creates and often executes plans for a project or structure
Thanks last poster, that is exactly what I meant, and anybody who took the time to read everything that I wrote would see that. I do remember saying I help out in the logic routines, provide the artists and keep a constant line of communication with my programmers, I also make sure that even though I dont program I know what they are talking about. I know my craft, through and through, and I strive to keep learning things about them everyday, I can pretty much do a little bit of light everything on my team to get my point across. I know how and regularly do apply things such as psychology, marketing and business to my ideas. I make sure I constantly do market research on my products to make sure that they will be the most commercially viable, why, because I dont carry that type of power yet, and besides I still need to eat. Never once in my post did I claim I was any Messiah, all I wanted is for people to take a look at the current crop of designers, and wonder why do they have their job, If Game Designers were taken seriously then there wouldnt be so much garbage, and American game companies wouldnt be considered the bottom of the barrel in the game industry compared to anyone else. From the immortal words from a friend who was once at Electronic Arts, "I work at the largest games publisher in the world, making billions annually and all we can still be courageous enough to make is overhyped (sports/movie/media) translations, we should be trying to make Japanese companies like Square and Nintendo sweat icicles in the morning, trying to really show what we can do, but because our investors dont understand a damn thing about this business, nor care to we continue to release dogshit in a box" He said this right before leaving Electronic Arts, he now works for Retro Studios, a second party of Nintendo how ironic. I personally am thinking long and hard about getting a deal with a Japanese company, for I have no desire to constantly be putting out three and a half star games, because I have fought too long and too hard to be here, dont mind eating the crow when i have to, but I know I am a five star designer, and I want to be under a publisher that will allow me to do that (in realistic terms no doubt), any suggestions on who that publisher could be folks?
) being required. That would just be a foolish assumption. Who is going to be continually debugging the program that creates these programs and art? PROGRAMMERS! And who will be fixing up the blemishes in the art? ARTISTS! You can''t send a machine to do a humans job 
