Oh youre most definitely right my friend, but the difference is that Square releases other types of games, when was the last time Sierra has released something other than Half Life? Square released 5 games in 2000, they make rpgs, shooters, fighting games, racing, and strategy games, they make 3d rpgs, 2drpgs, anime is just their expression of doing it, but regardless there is always variety in the gameplay and in the presentation as well. Again, my complaint isnt bread and butter titles, its companies that rely soley on them instead of ever trying to push the envelope, or just try something else. Besies my argument focuses on AMERICAN console companies, I have no qualms with European companies.

One more thing, Atari isnt Japanese they are American, secondly try out a little known console rpg known as Xenogears, then come back to me and tell me if Ultima 7 is better. I have no cultural bias, first of all remember my focus is on American console gamemakers, I use PC games as examples lack of ram has nothing to do with putting out a good game. Smart designers have put out hits on the Gameboy. If you complain about a lack of ram then how good of a designer are you? Which goes back to my original point are you a limited or unlimited designer, an unlimited designer knows how to work his way around technical difficulties (if you want to call them that) because he can (and does) design everything, an epic doesn''t have to be some sweeping rpg friend. Super Mario Bros. 2 was an epic, and it was on an 8bit Nintendo system.

quote: Original post by AngelStar

Oh youre most definitely right my friend, but the difference is that Square releases other types of games, when was the last time Sierra has released something other than Half Life?

Gee...aside from their massive adventure game lineage ( Quest games, Gabriel Knight, etc ), they''ve published Homeworld, Tribes, EarthSiege, but yeah, they have no diversity at all. All first person shooters from where I''m sitting. And let''s get the facts straight. I read in Sierra''s magazine way back before Half-life, when everyone else was doing Doom/Quake clones, Sierra said, and I''m paraphrasing, that they would not get into the FPS market until they had a product that would really be revolutionary. In my mind they delivered with Half-Life.

Try checking out sierra''s website before you start bashing them.

Ut

And when was the last time they released something other than Half Life, when was the last Kings Quest, and how were the ratings on the last Gabriel Knight? Oh and by they way im talking about what is coming next from them, yet another Half Life sequel and another Homeworld, again, don''t think i know what Im talking about, I consider myself a professional, when I speak on certain things dont think I am ignorant to them. I just dont think certain things need to be said, the past is the past, what are they doing now is the question, Homeworld was okay, Half Life was great, and the follow up? Another set of sequels , and Sierra is probably the best out of the bunch, once again ON PC.Another set of sequels (Im not trying to Bash Sierra, but pancakes with rasberry syrup is still just pancakes). Now back to my console argument....

Let me say this again for the Nth time...

What does your company stand for? How passionate are they about their products?
When people speak about them do they speak about them with a tear in their eye or do they speak about them with indifference?

What makes your company so different. Oh thats right I forgot we are contempt with getting another "Me too" Just this time it has cheese.

Oh yeah thats right, Sierra doesnt makes games anymore they publish them. Forgive my spelling (this can get me a bit excited). What I meant to say is we gamers are content with getting another "Me too sandwich" cept this time it has four grain bread and brie cheese.

AngelStar, you are short-sighted by your love of console-style RPGs. To a lot of the rest of us, all these RPGs are the same. You, however, are part of the target audience, and you can differentiate between them. The exact same goes for people playing FPS games on the PC. I used to be an avid Quake2 player (in fact I had a registered Quake clan that I led). I can feel the differences between different FPSes, and I can say that Half-Life wasn''t just a re-hash of Quake either. And if Sierra decides to publish a game called Half-Life 2, that doesn''t mean its going to be the same game all over. With a different story, it will not be the same game at all. It''ll be the next in the series. So, come on, tell me, how many Final Fantasies have there been? Now that REEKS of "milking out the sequel strategy", yet a lot of people still play these games and think they are excellent, and very different from eachother.
Just because someone slaps a number on the end of the title doesn''t mean it''ll be more of the same, and just because they CHANGE the title doesn''t mean it WON''T be more of the same. It all depends on the game inside the package.



People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
Mad Keith the V.

First up, my horribly biased defense of Sierra. No, forget that. Defense of their once honorable CEO, Ken Williams. I''d like to point out that, yes, Sierra sucks now. However, just look at their fine history of experimentation and beautiful game lineage. When people were pulling out, Sierra was buying up independent studios to push the limits. Coktel Vision (Inca, Lost in Time), Dynamix (Tribes 2, Heart of China), Jeff Tunnel Productions a division of Dynamix (The Incredable Machine, Hunter/Hunted), Valve (Half-Life), not to mention things developed in house (Quest for Glory, Kings Quest, Gabriel Knight, etc) and games experimenting even in places that eventually failed (Phantasmagoria and live action games). Yes, after Ken left, the company got rid of this mentality, but don''t just go and trash them. With all the talk about respecting designers, there was a company that actually pushed the limits with their designers.

Okay, on to "epic" games. Let''s use three definitins of the word "epic." The first is a type of novel that has a specific format, centered around a specific type of character with a specific type of conflict. In this sense, Mario Bros. 2 is, well, not an "epic" in its traditional sense. There are very few games that actually hold the true title of "epic" when put next to the true epics and the books that created the epic model, the Illiad, and the Odyssey. Second definition of "epic" would be ground breaking. Games like Homeworld might be considered epic. Ultima 7, Xenogears, Final Fantasy 7, Ico, Pac Man. Mario Bros 2, again, was not ground breaking. Last definition is really good, and it''s ussually whay people mean when they say "epic". Quake 3, Max Payne, Final Fantasy 10, GT3, Mario Bros 2.

As for the "true" designers and their respect in the industry... true designers are not the ones that have good ideas for multiple games as you say. Certainly, that might be a sign of a good designer, but it''s not something that''s required. I would venture to say that even you, as a 5 star designer, don''t know how to create "games" in every single genre, considering a) there are still genere''s to be discovered, b) you''re probably leaving out some generes like the fantasy MUDs of old, adult oriented games, non-linear games, and hypertext stories (which can be considered games in a way), and c) you seam to have this notion that the same rules apply to every genere, which may not nessicarilly be true.

A true designer is able to take an idea for a game (be it their own or someone elses) and mold it and shape it into a playable peice of work. If they''re highly speicalised in one area, what''s that matter? They are able to create better games in their genre and we benifit. And the learning of designers is evident. Have you played Dune 2? It''s far far different from the newer RTSs (even it''s god awful remake, Dune 2000), and it''s harder to control. They learned what to do in newer games, and the evolution is evident. They do this though either balancing, script writing, rules creation, concept creation, etc. The true title of designer or director may be abused... but look at it this way. How many games do you see from ANYWHERE that have a name attached to them. Not many, and then it''s only people who have proven themselves in the past. Who''s the director of Xenogears? Who''s the designer of Warcraft? Who designed Myth? Half-life? Homeworld (this is not Alex Garden by the way, he produced it)? How about Unreal? Ico? All great games, but no name really attached to them. On the flip side, who directed MGS2? Who designed Deus Ex (two possible answers to that)? Final Fantasy X? Alice? The Sims? Civilization? Those are easier to answer, because they''re people who proved themselves and THEN got their name attaced to the product.

Furthermore, the games we eventually see from Japan are the better ones they think will sell here. We don''t recive some good ones, but we also don''t get some bad ones. As for lisencing, it''s not just done here. Do you know how many Ranma 1/2 games were made? About 3 RPGS and a fighting game, probably more. Drangonball Z? Kenshin (these games are really awful apparently)? Just because you see some of the better games on the Japan market, and more of the bad games on the US maket, doesn''t mean that if you went to Japan you wouldn''t see the reverse.

Lastly, an important portion of the designers job is comunication with the entire team, and an ability to absorb ideas from everyone and incorporate them if they''ll work. You can''t work in a hole. You never know where the next good idea is comming from. It might be that intern programmer who likes opperating systems. It might be that seasoned artist who has a better idea about how characters should look. The designer is a TEAM player, and not in any way the result of individual effort. Read articles or inverview from any good designer, and they will probably reiterate that several times. It''s one of the reasons not much "respect" is given to specific designers. Maybe this is just how you come across in your posts, but you sound very closed minded about you being a 5 star designer/tortured genius who no one understands. Get over it. To become a "true" designer, you''re not going to be able to work alone on your principles.

Why did this get dredged up? Haven''t we got enough "What does a designer do" threads running about at the moment?

Angelstar,
I''ve been thoroughly impressed with a lot of what you''ve said,and you really express a lot of the frustrations I feel as a would be designer.Good luck to you,I have every confidence you
are one of the few who have what it takes to make it in this rather immature industry.

I shake your hand my good man.

"There''s so much to do, and a lot of you are wasting time.
This is ART dagnammit! get creative or get buried."