Well, first, thank you for spending your time on this - I can see that my half-baked ideas are making you confused, but talking about it is helping me get a clearer idea of what shape my book should be, so you are definitely helping me. :)

Quote:

"The beta Male is gay. He has to be, because all Beta males are gay." Is this some sort of circular thought or something that eludes me? Does he have to be gay because he is a beta male, and beta males do not get the females, so have to resort to something else to enjoy their sexuality, or does he have to be a beta male in order to enjoy his homosexuality? I think it would be more likely in this form, but you're free to object, this is your story, after all. Maybe he was built as an alpha male, but has different feelings about sexuality preventing him to spawn, and that downranks automatically as a beta. But I really don't know why all betas are gays.

Beta males are gay because they are genetically female and it is programmed into their genes for them to be attracted to alpha males the same way it is programmed into the genes for females to be attracted to alpha males. So beta males are like women that accidentally got born with dicks. I'm not sure that the details of the genders and arcys are really important to figuring out the plot though. It's only important that Lieann be some sort of discriminated against outcast - he could be an albino or something if I decided I didn't want to have beta males and females at all. Similarly with babies, adoption would work fine if one didn't want to get into the idea of male pregnancy.

So, let's focus on the heart of the matter, the plot. I proposed that faction X, which characters M and A are associated with, and faction Y, which characters L and R are associated with, are rivals in attempting to acquire Q. We don't know what Q is yet, but it should give its possessor power within the patriarchy - enough power that if R has it he can declare himself a clan leader. So M and A struggle against L and R, but in the process they discover both factions X and Y are the bad guys, and the only ones they can trust are each other, so they all defect and form a new faction Z. Both factions X and Y are characterized by being traditional and thinking inside the box, but the new faction Z, since it is made up of misfits, is characterized by being radical and thinking outside the box. The 4 characters combine their strengths (strategy, creativity, charisma and faith) to steal Q for themselves and use it to establish themselves as an official clan, which fulfills all their personal goals/dreams.

This is kind of the reverse of your example of the prison escape. In the prison escape everything starts out clear (inmates vs. prison) and ends muddled (only some escape, M loves L but L is a lesbian who doesn't love him back, etc. However what I want is the opposite dynamic, where everyone starts off alone and with barriers between them and the others, and the barriers get eliminated one at a time. The barriers between the characters are eliminated first, then the couple, (or in this case foursome) has one last decisive battle against an external threat and their victory creates a space of safety for the couple/family to have its happy ending. This is a standard kind of plot for a romance novel. The thing that the group is pitched against is the barriers keeping them oppressed and preventing them from reaching their dreams - essentially, they are opposed to their lack of power within the patriarchy. So are X and Y, which is why they want to get Q, because Q will give them that power.

So, okay, you said "It's probably a plot, but it's definitely not a story." What does it take to make it a story? Just adding details to flesh it out? I can see what you mean when you say that trying to rationalize the story to do all the character and theme things I want to do is hellishly difficult - this is probably where I've been getting stuck all along. I know it's possible to create characters and let the plot grow out of them, I know some professional authors who do things this way, but usually they are 'make-it-up-as-they-go-along' types who would never try to outline a plot ahead of time like we are doing, so they can't give us any advice about how to do it.

Anyway, let me take a turn at trying to make this plot idea more story-like, maybe that will help. The main question is, what is Q, and how will it give its posessor power? Q should be something only a clan leader can use, and which is difficult to get, which is why at the beginning only X and Y, two big political units which already have some power and money, are trying to get it. So it can't be just grades - good grades are not really an important qualification for being a clan leader. The leader (R) doesn't have to be the smartest one, he could have smart advisors (L and M) instead. But I like the idea of a team vs. team competition with Q as the prize. Q might be provided by the king as a reward for the most capable new clan formed in the school. (Which doesn't have to be a military school, it could be a space academy (think the academy in star trek), or maybe just an academy for the children of the noble clans of the region. Maybe Q is a territory and castle, or maybe there are only a set number of noble clans and one dies out and Q is the opening for a new clan to replace that one? And BTW I was thinking that A would be starting his 2nd year at the school, and M would be given to him as a slave/pet. L and R... either they do not attend the school, and are entering the competition as an outside team, or they would be starting their 3rd or 4th year facing the big problem that they don't have anyone who wants to be part of their family.

So there's some ideas. Oh and let me see if I can explain why I think a family structure like this would indeed be ethologically feasable. First, let's assume that these dragons lay eggs. One big egg, almost half the mass of the mother, per pregnancy. And then the egg will need to be sat on and kept warm for a while. Plus, lets add some weasels who love to eat eggs, such that one adult dragon must be awake and on the lookout for them at all times (before they invented houses to keep the weasels out anyway). So, if two sisters, sisters-in-law or two mates of the same male nested together, their offspring would have a much higher survival rate because one female could sleep on the eggs keeping them warm, one could watch vigilantly for weasels, and the male(s) could hunt to feed the females and fight other males to defend the territory. Even if the two females were not related, it would benefit one to have the other's egg survive because having siblings gives the child a higher chance of producing offspring later.

Does it make more sense now?

Yes, it does!! And I feel so stupid for not being able to think outside the box!! dragons hatch!! They are not humans and are not viviparians... They lay eggs. Good one! indeed a very good one. Only, the idea of having an egg half your size comming out of your asshole... ouch! maybe you could fine tune it down some sizes? make it XL instead of XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXL? Maybe it's twice or thrice as big as an ostrich egg? which would be already perfectly big enough to host something as big as a baby human when full size. I admit that human babies are not fully functional when they come out, whereas most animal ones are. But maybe dragons are halfway? They hatch eggs in which babies grow to some suitable size to come out, but have to grow some more before being able to really go on their own?

Anyway.

Having a band of outcasts banding to form a group is not a novel idea. What is still bothering me is "why does he have to be gay? does it have an immediate impact on the story?" The way I see this, it probably has for you. You are trying to write a romance, and therefore need a way to introduce some sexual behavior in it. But I am not entirely at ease with homosexuality. I don't mean that I have problems with homosexuality in general, simply that I lack personal knowledge of that to write something that could remotely pass for anything but a rehash of Birdcage... this has to be where you are most deeply involved.

On the other hand, no matter how hard you try, you'll find yourself faced with a big problem, one that i have stated earlier on in this thread:
"bonds only tighten if gone through trouble" like knots through water.

You will want to have trouble await them down the alley. And the more important reward is, the more trouble and envy you'll find there.

You said that a clan is dying out, and that the king, or duke, or whatever, is offering the possibility for new ones to create their own clan. It shouldn't be something very common, but neither unheard of. It is something that happens every time a clan dies out. Males from all over the ruler's territory are gathered and those willing to start the clan will have to compete over it. It should simply be a privilege, which means private law, as a fact. Now why am I saying this? It should come back later. It must have something with terry Pratchett. yes. I remember now. It is from him I learned that. And the reason why I am thinking of his books is that it reminds me of the Kelda in "The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents", in his collection of Discworld novels for kids. The same happens whenever a kelda dies, a call is sent through the other clans, and girls from there come and find a husband in the new clan. The one who gets married there gets the title of Kelda, and ensures the lineage. The same could happen there. A call is sent throughout the clans, for a new clan leader. It now belongs to tradition that potential clan leaders come to the competition with friends to support and help them, and that those friends are rewarded with the possibility to have babies too. They help expand the clan.

But usually, being the leader of the clan means having more females than the others, in order to promote the leader's genes. The others are authorized to have only one mate.

Ok.

So now, we have a competition for a dominant position. I don't think it should happen in school. The whole concept of school in here is giving me hard times. If the clans are already social through an animal-like way then they have no use for the school. They probably educate their own young, like the american indian tribes. Potentially, even the system of beliefs is passed on through talking and telling...

BANG!!!!

They are trying to get a shaman!!

The leader has to be a shaman to lead the rest of the group. He has to have some special powers, like you said. He has to find his totem. The usual way of defining the leader is indeed the old fashion. All the groups are sent in the wilderness for some time, and have to survive by themselves for two whole time cycles, whatever you choose them to be. During this first period of time, you can describe rather fully the way each main character fits in regard of the others.

Then the second part begins, where they are all called towards a certain place, like a magic circle in the forest, or a cave, somewhere. Everything happens in the same valley, for everybody, in order to make sure that no one cheats. Maybe it happens in the valley of the died out clan. Anyway.

But from that point on, the leades have to cast their totems, and pitch them in a fight against other totems. The result of these spiritual fights is usually the equivalent of a Knock Out. But two particular potential shamans are showing some cruelty in their own traits and fights. Their totem does not only knock the other out, but it also tears it to ribbons, and kills the spirit within the bodies, leaving only empty envelopes. And when they should show regrets, they scorn. They are bad guys.

From that point, some followers of the two main teams decide that they don't want to belong to a clan which totem is an incarnation of cruelty. They split, and decide to go their own route. L&R should even have an occasion to pitch their own totem against that of A&M. The outcome should be something that is unheard of, even in legends, the totems have no desire to fight, they circle each others and come back to their respective shamans after leaving a mark on the body of the other. This kind of fight should be spectacular enough for everybody in the valley to see it. Think of images displayed on the clouds, or maybe BE the clouds, or smoke, or three-dimensional holograms, anything, but HUGE!!!

They decide that, being bonded by their own totems, they will fight side by side, and create their own clan. Symbolism is your forte, show some creativity.

Now the part that I like the least. Personal relationships.

I can imagine that Attranath is submissive, but I can't understand why he would become gay all of a sudden. Unless he already was gay, and Lieann was his lover. Then why would he change to Ravennin? Because ravennin is the designated Shaman of the group, because he can gather both totems? Yes. the outcome of hte fight is that both totems went inside ravennin. It left Attranath perfectly safe, but longing to belong to ravennin as well. Lieann is lonely, and feels some interest in the proximity of another male, Merru, who is still one of the most active in the group. He is the survivalist of them, and provides most of the food needed. The way their relations deepen is entirely left to you. They could starve or feel relieved because of Merru's skills. But that would leave Ravennin without the skills you were predestining him for. Oh, well, I changed that too. I am famous for ruining everything and reconstructing from the ashes... Merru is the adaptator, the creative one, the survivalist. He is the one any clan leader would dream to have, because he would provide fod for more than fifteen persons by his own. While the other groups are hungry, this one is not.

Which makes them jealous.

When there is only three groups left, both cruel ones and the bunch of loners, a diplomatic move should be made by both cruel ones to recover all four of them, under different reasons. Maybe a shaman is feeling impressed by ravennin's trick of absorbing the totem, and is afraid that he may do the same, but won't admit it. Or maybe they want to get merru, but are prepared to accept the others too in order to secure that. When they see that the group won't split, they should take violent measures. But once again, we may find ourselves divided over this. I think that in this kind of trial, violence is a must.

So the other two should fight psychically, and the result should be the most violent psychical fight ever, with both tearing at each others, and finally one eating out the other alive, leaving the remaining stronger than in the beginning, and the other dead. Unexpected, unacceptable, unbearable, if the tradition was to be respected. But this valley needs a protector, a shaman, so so be it.

Only two are remaining. The cruelest, and the most curious one. The battle should show the bigger totem of the cruels becoming menacing while TWO closely related totems sping in the air, a short fight begins, then everything stops. The totems are circling each others, turning, whirling, and finally everything goes down on ravennin: he has absorbed another totem and a particularly big one a that, without fully knowing how.

A final showdown of the beaten shaman should occur at that moment. He should try to deal physically with ravennin. But either he is stopped by the fact that he no longer has followers, because he no longer has a totem, or he could be stopped BY them, because they now choose to follow his totem instead of him, and side with ravennin. And even if they are not accepted in Ravennin's clan, they are ready to accept his ruling.

The whole troup, except the beaten shaman, walks back to the entrance gorge to meet the ruler, and show who is the new shaman to everybody. Surprise, he was not one of the original contestants. Anyway, the law and the totems have spoken, and in quite a new way. A new clan now exists, blah blah blah...

Pleased? It changes quite a bit from original design. But after all, I have already imagined, what?, two? three designs for this story? A new one is not going too far, is it?

Yeah, I am pleased. :) I can tell we are getting closer to something that would work for me when I have to let the idea roll around in my mind for a few hours before I can decide if there are any flaws with it.

First of all I agree about the egg-size thing. I remember reading somewhere that bird eggs can be up to 1/3 the mother's mass (partly because eggs are more dense than birds, because birds are evolved to have hollow flight bones while eggs are almost all fluid, which gradually gets converted into an equivalent mass of baby bird.) A baby-sized egg would probably weigh about 10-11 lbs. (including amniotic sac and shell) - that's a bit more than 1/10 the mother's weight for beta females (who weigh around 90 lbs.) and a bit less than 1/10 for alpha females (who weigh around 130 lbs.). Since dragons are bipedal flightless 'birds' much like an ostritch, I'll look up ostritch eggs later to get a guideline to work from. I agree with the idea that baby dragons should need to be cared for like baby humans and birds, although I don't know about the feeding-them-by-throwing-up idea - maybe make them born mature enough to eat banannas and bread and similar soft foods.

For the homosexuality, if it makes it easier for you to think about it you can imagine Attranath and Lieann as girls. Me, I don't see that much difference between male and female characters - Ravennin is kind of extremely, unquestionably male, but the others have personalities that would work in either a male or female body. I'm making them male because I prefer to write male characters, I just have more fun doing male characters than female ones and I like the forbiddenness of homosexuality as a way of making the romance a big risk for the characters, but the story would probably work just as well with heterosexual or lesbian pairings.

So imagine that Attranath is the cute shy innocent girl who is given Merru as a bodyguard, and they aren't each other's types (Attra is too submissive and innocent for Merru, while Merru is not dominant enough for Attra) so instead of really being lovers they do the best-friends-with-benefits thing. Merru thinks of Attranath as a little sister and Attranath thinks of Merru as a big brother. Lieann OTOH is someone Ravennin's father would dissaprove of (for whatever reason the rest of society dissaproves of her and she is an outcast). So Ravennin is trying the whole time not to get emotionally attached to her because they both know he can't marry her, and she's trying to guard her emotions from getting hurt so she's not loving toward him either. They have a disfunctional relationship which is hurting them both. So then when the two faction run into each other Lieann and Merru fall for each other (despite Lieann's fear of being hurt again, and Merru's worries about being loyal to Attranath), and Attranath and Ravennin fall for each other (despite the problem that this is a Romeo-and-Juliet pairing that Ravennin's father would not just disapprove of, but maybe even disown him because of it).


On to the Shaman/Totem Battle idea. Well, I think this captures the essence of what I want to do, although the details need to be reworked to fit my tastes and worldbuilding. One question - the school, as previously described, serves the very important social function of letting the teenage dragons mingle and figure out who they want to marry. If there isn't a school, how would this happen? Parties thrown by the noble families? Arranged marriages? An annual festival/tournament?

The idea of having spirit battles is interesting. Maybe a bit too superhero-ish for my tastes - my instinct would be more to have psychic duels inside the landscape of the combatants' minds, with lots of metaphorical objects symbolizing their memories. But the real problem is that this one-on-one physical combat doesn't require Lieann and Merru's special abilities. Now, if they were all in a spaceship or a simulator playing a wargame, or in some sort of survival challenge where they could make traps and improvise creative tricks, that would be better for showing how the 4 characters' unique abilities are all vital to the team. Hmm, I don't want to be too cliche and make Q symbolized by a foozle that the team has to fight through a dungeon of magical traps to get to, although functionally that might work. That's why I like the idea of a school - because schools are great for setting crazy tests that bend the students' minds and stretch the limits of their abilities. Also, if you an your rivals are students at the same school, this makes it likely that you will run into the same annoying person again and again, so that they get more characterization and a rivalric relationship is built up and it means more when you finally do defeat them at the climax of the book, rather than facing enemies once in a fight and defeating them definitively so that you never have to fight them again.

I really am doubtful about whether this should be a fantasy world or a science fiction world. I am more experienced with science fiction and my instincts are more attuned that way, but fantasy might be an easier way to get the various plot and worldbuilding elements to make sense together, especially the fact that Merru somehow got to be a human mind in a dragon body. What do you think?

As for dragons not going with science fiction, I can think of several science fiction books offhand which have the word Dragon in the title. Honestly, I think a wish-fullfillment story about a human becoming a dragon and finding a best friend, true love, and a family in the process has HUGE commercial potential, whether it is done in a science fiction or fantasy way. Look at the Dragonriders of Pern books - possibly the most popular dragon series ever, they are science fiction with psionics as their only fantasy-ish element.

I definitely can't have Merru's personality be described as 'human' and everyone else's be described as 'different from human' - that would completely defeat the purpose of a story about Merru 'going native' and becoming part of the alien society. I want the dragons to have thoughts and feelings just like humans, only cultural differences. My second choice for Merru would be to make him a dragon of a different race from the others, such that their culture and the worldbuilding would be new and alien to him, but then I'd have to figure out what the culture of his race of dragons is like, and I would strongly prefer that, since Merru is the sympathetic viewpoint character and the readers are supposed to be learning about the dragons along with him, he start out human in a culture much like ours/the readers'. I want the dragons to see Merru as an animal at first, until he figures out how to say and do the things that make him seem like a man within their culture. So for the first part of the book, the faithful Attranath will come to think of Merru as a person, while everyone else takes more convincing and teases Attranath for treating Merru like a person when he looks like an animal.

So here's a question for you - why might Attranath be given Merru as a slave/pet? If Attranath is a student at a school, Merru might be supposed to be a working animal something like a police dog, and the second year of school is when everyone gets theirs to start training. Or, it could have something to do with the dragons' idea that clan leaders' 'own' their followers, and owning a pet is good practice for being a leader and an emblem showing that this student comes from a noble family and is intended to become a leader. Then again, Merru might be a nobleman's exotic, expensive pet and Attranath is a low-ranking member of the nobleman's household (maybe a nephew or a cousin) assigned to be Merru's handler/trainer.

A Human becoming a Dragon?

Well you could do it, but it would require one of two things:
Either your human is directly identifiable (and therefore completely alien to dragons, and they should react this way) and then your drahons are completely alien to the reader
Or your Dragons are absolutely identical to what Humans really are, and you have to find an excuse for Merru (Kind of a strange name for a human, by the way. Maybe he has been given this name by Attranath? Then this name is likely to have a story, which you should tell.) being so different from them.

If the story is to have a Sci-Fi back-ground, I can think of an easy way to do that. Once again two possibilities.
Merru's body is that of a human. Ever heard of "Alien Abduction"? This is the case. He is a human trapped in the body of a Human. And he hates it. He has been abducted by Dragons and has wished to remain among them because there was seemingly nothing for him back on earth, or any other alien race having commercial relations with the dragons abducted him and sold him as slave, experimental subject, exotic pet, anything.
Second possibility still involves "Alien Abduction" and a copy of his brain and brain waves pattern. He still has a Dragon body, brain included, but it functions on the Human model it has been modified to follow.

Honestly, I don't know how a race that ignores as much as possible Physical violence would A) ever get to develop any science, since most of science evolutions derive from hunting and war inventions and B) have gotten to eat flesh. If they were herbivors before getting big brains, then it is likely that they got those bigger brains because of an addition of proteins and energy. You could always argue that there is that special tree that gives them all the food they need, from leaves, stems, roots and bark, but it would then ruin the very concept of learning to FIGHT together. if the only reason of a family unit for bearing three to eight adults at any one time is for always having one of them nesting the egg(s), then what are the others occupied to? they are not hunting, since their food GROWS. And it's not likely the tree is fleeing. A limited amount of this special tree is bound to result in a limited population. And therefore not much evolution in it.

The only biological reason any species evolve is for a need in food. These lizard birds evolved in bipedals, because their food was higher, but that only happened once they got rid of their predators, unless you plan on having them play the roadrunner part. They devolved their wings into big thin long hands, because fly was not needed anymore to flee from their predators (collision of a comet?). They got access to more diverse and energetic food, and developped bigger brains. Then they just scattered at the surface of earth, like Humans. And then, the surface of their world wasn't big enough to hold them out of reach from each group. Then came fights for territories and food sources. This triggered intelligent behavior because of wars. And once they mastered war, they could have civilisations. I'm still at bogus why only ONE would remain. Either it was the more belliquous, and got rid of all others, or it decided war was not an option anymore because it hads nearly wiped them from the surface (yeah right. We couldn't do that, so I don't think anything else will, since we are constructing them on human whims...)

Then, fighting is still a part of tradition, from those times when it was a necessary part of survival. If the society has evolved in a form where the "polynuclear families" are spread across a territory in order for each to have its own food source, albeit under someone's banner, then I guess that, as in American Indian clans, the teaching takes place inside the group, and is NOT left to some outer office. Therefore NO SCHOOL. Too bad for this part of the idea.

Then how does the intermingling of the different clans take place? Maybe there is, as you said, some big ball sometime (longest night of summer, second tuesday of spring, anything...) or there is a trial, precisely the one we are trying to write about. Where does the fighting against the others take place? Maybe the dragons always had some psychic powers. Through their evolution they tended to loose these powers, because they weren't needed anymore, since they could use something else to get food. And only those with those abilities can be chiefs of clans.

The ability is about to project some illusions. This was previously used to trick animals into being killed one way or another, and then it was used to make war. Illusions made a powerful weapon for those who knew how to harness it. Maybe they are not only illusions. Maybe there are tangible effects too? Like Yu-Gi-Oh's casting of monsters? damn. I was so sure something nice and original would come out of it. And we're still going back to this old theme...

Anyway. It would explain the strategist, at least. It could also explain the need for a hunter-survivalist, someone with high adaptativity. This one would be sort of the noise of the group, only one able to differentiate the illusions from real stuff? the only safeguard when the mind barriers of the shaman fall down? Then what is the role of the follower? In what way does his faith alter the outcome of battles? Possibility to fall back on ancient beliefs linked with the magic of dragon blood shed to enhance the illusions. maybe give more "flesh" to them, make them more tangible, or longer so...

Now, why would Attranath be given a pet? No. Wrong question. If the contest is about getting the bare essentials of a team to form a family unit, then pets should not take part into that contest... No cheating, only the family in the making. Then Merru cannot be a pet. What can He be? Maybe he really is Huuman after all? A curious one? There is this novel by robert Silverberg. "Letters from Atlantis", I think. It was about sending one's psyche through time into another body, in order to learn from Atlantis, prime. Maybe this is what happened.

The humans, for a reason, have come to be aware of planets in the universe on which life could spring. they have researched it for a while. The person inhabiting Merru's body is a lonely student with a passion for both the stars and this conscience travel thing. maybe you've read Bernard Werber's Thanatonauths? They are exploriong death through extracorporeal activity. Maybe the same technique has been used. or something quite similar. He has searched for extraterrestrial ilife, has found an ET intelligence, and has chosen to stay a while to learn about them. But as he settled, Merru was already on his way towards the Contest, and he had to act like everything was normal to him.

Maybe Lieann is also a human who has made the same travel? but a woman? thus explaining why he acts like a woman? No. It has already been defined that dragons are evolving. Although I still don't see the reason for this to happen, life can be funny at times.

Back to Merru. Merru was already friend with Attranath before being "intruded" by his human host. Attranath only told him all he should be aware off, or maybe he acted like he knew everything, like in the first book of roger Zelazny's Ambre Princes saga... Any way, he has gone unremarked and has started to take a liking in Attranath and the group they are travelling with. As having always been an outcast, it feels good for once to be accepted. That is, until he finds their way of doing things does not suit his personal tastes, and decides to go on his own again, making Attranath follow him because of their already growing stronger friendship. Maybe Attranath DID find something changed, but felt it was rather for the better?

damn. Maybe it is because it is getting late, but I can't get hooked to this story. this is just too... difficult to swallow. Mind you, it may be so because it does not bear the proper wording. I swallowed Silverberg's and Werber's easily. So why not this one? Because of the alien landscape and people. Stupid, Dragons are in fact very much like us, or so I understood. It should work.

So I sum it up. Or down.

A human sent his consciousness across the universe to an inhabited planet, and found a host to study the population at his leisure. being rather a loner, he was rather pleased to find that he had already friends. But was also worried that he would have to take an active participation into a contest for the ruling of a part of the world, in which a new clan would be formed. He liked the idea anyway. Until he found out that the people he was teamed with were doing things so alien to him and his beliefs that he had to leave them. His being alien helped him think out of the box, and made him more adaptable than other indigens. He trained a friend with him, Attranath. Attranath is only interested in becoming a faithful follower of a strong Shaman.

The Contest for superiority has begun, and it has gathered youths from all over the country, males, females and betas. Only males take part in the contest (?). the leader must show his ability to dsiplay tangible illusions in order to defeat his avdersaries tangible illusions. The contest is all about that.

After ravennin has fled his former formation with the strategist of it, lieann, they meet Attranath and Merru who have fled theirs for the same reasons of "barbary". They choose to gather and create their own clan.

The rest happens as previously posted.

Getting better?

Not sure where your concerns about food and violence came from - I never said the dragons were herbivores, in point of fact I said Ravennin was good at hunting. *confused* The whole species doesn't have to be pacifist, I just want the book to focus on a fairly non-violent slice of dragon life. There are lots of books written about humans in real life which have little or no violence, surely we can do the same with dragons. You want to focus on the totemic duels because that is something flashy and familiar to you, but if I were going to write something like that I might use a combat or two as the major turning point and climax, but most of the book would be training for the combat, romance, verbal sparring, and exploring the worldbuilding.

Speaking of source materials, one which keeps coming to mind is _A Fire Upon the Deep_ by Vernor Vinge. This book had a species of aliens called the Tines, which existed in packs of 4-8. But each individual Tine was not very intelligent, they were units specialized in different cerebral functions, and they only became a 'person' when the units were combined into a pack with a collective mind. Now, I'm not suggesting we make dragons stupid, but what if they have to mentally (psychically?) combine to create a gestalt which is the essence of a clan? So the purpose of the school or party would be to identify which piece of the puzzle each dragon is (by aura? totem?) and arrange them into groups which could successfully create a gestalt. Some dragons would be totally incompatible with others, some would be more powerful than others, and they would have to be trained to control and use their abilities. Ravennin would be someone who has a very strong ability but is incompatible with almost everybody.

So if the gestalt were like a fighting spaceship, Ravennin would be the guns and the strong prow for ramming and enduring enemy attacks. Attranath would be the engine, and Merru and Lieann would be the sensors and AI which gathered and processed info to tell the ship what to do. Possibly there is a shortage of one type of piece and the dragons steal aliens who have that ability, and that might be where Merru came from. Or maybe he was just supposed to be a pet but having this ability is how he demonstrates that he is a person? I dunno, the whole concept is a bit mystical and new-agey for my taste, but that's just the form it came to me in while I was dreaming, so blame my subconscious. ;)

I received a very interesting book in the mail today: Vector Theory and the Plot Structures of Literature and Drama by Cynthia Joyce Clay. Particularly relevant to this thread is that she disagrees with the notion that conflict=plot, and devotes a whole chapter to explaining how the idea that a story must have a protagonist and an antagonist who fight is limiting and formulaic. An interesting statement that she makes is that a violent climax which portrays the destruction of one or both of the forces in conflict is actually counterproductive if you consider that the purpose of a work of fiction is to tell a story about change, transformation... a destroyed antagonist and an unapposed protagonist (or vice versa) haven't really been transformed. As a counter-example, she describes a novel where the two women's rivalry makes both learn and grow, until their newfound identity and power invalidates their reason to struggle against each other - one transforms into a panther and goes to live in the forest, and the other becomes a priestess and goes to live in a temple. And before the conflict they were struggling in parallel/together against their situation, just like I want my characters to be struggling in parallel/together against society. :)

In a different chapter, she says two other interesting things right in a row: In science fiction, the interest and excitement are created by figuring out just what the qualities of the aliens are and how to react to them. In romances, the interaction is to show that the hero does indeed have all the qualities the heroine wants in a man (including some which he initially lacks or which are hidden, and must be gained or found before the heroine and the plot are satisfied. I find these two statements particularly interesting, because if you combine them you get exactly what I want to write. ^_^ The characters are all in some way alien to each other: Merru is literally alien to the others, Attranath is a sheep in wolf's clothing, Ravennin is hyperterritorial, and Lieann is a beta male. So the interest and excitement in my novel should come from the characters investigating and testing each other, and being astonished to discover a best friend here and a lover there, when they expected a potentially dangerous alien. That's what the plot should mainly be about - how through meeting the others and becoming a family each is transformed to a more confident/powerful/mature/whatever version of himself. :)

Which brings us back to plotting. According to vector theory, we should imagine the 4 main characters as billiard balls, each going their own direction at their own speed, and the direction and the speed are determined by what they want, how they are attempting to get it, and what is resisting their attempts. The plot is about how these billiard balls bang into each other, are magnetically attracted to or repelled by each other, and bounce off walls and bump over obstacles. The snowflake method suggests that a plot be composed of 'three disasters and an ending'. If we substitute for 'disaster' with 'transformation'... that could work.

[Edited by - sunandshadow on May 7, 2005 12:40:25 AM]

Then I don't know how things are beginning orevolving, but I think they could end this way.

They could loose the fightand still decide to create their own clan, because not doing so would be too hard for them. It would mean to separate. Of course, doing so puts them automatically at aban of society, since they are not respecting traditions, but they won't care. They already are a clan. And they'll have to travel away from the land of Dragons in order to simply live. They truly are outcasts now, but happy with it. Maybe you don't even have to decribe it, just the aftemath...

As for the rest, sorry, I can't help any further. I just can't wrap my mind around those concepts. Maybe my english lacks the possibility to do so. Maybe I'm just to dumb to get the words, or the meaning is hidden because of ack of sleep. Anyway, it seems EXTREMELY alien to me. So much for the help. I will never see my name on one of your novels. Well, I'll just have to learn to do without.

And, just to discuss the point, I think that having decided to rush off the battlefield of opposition for both women is just a way to win in another form. They have accepted the fact that they couldn't win in their normal approach, so now, they just have done something else, innovant, to get to the next closer point of victory conditions. They will live happly everafter with their love, albeit not with their loved one, they will live alone, which wa al what that conflict was about, or anything else. They just transfered the point of their conflict.

Well, don't give up - I'm going to play with the plot structure for a few days and then ask your opinion on what I come up with. Meanwhile, did you want me to help you with some character emotion or dialogue stuff? Just explain what you have trouble with and I'll see if I can help. :)

OMG!! This is going to be even longer than the previous posts...

Anyway. Here goes!

I've been toying around with an idea about a setting. I've proposed it here and there to see how much people would be interested in it, how much it would make an interesting background for a game or a novel. And seeing how fast I could get people interested in making a game based on this, I decided to go the novel route.

This is probably going to be a genre seldomly exploited before. Let's call this "steam-fantasy"?

This story takes place in a background torn by civil war for more than twenty-five years. The King, a great mage like all kings must be, died twenty-eight years ago, and a war for his succession has begun. His son, a mage of average power took up the throne, and it provoked an uproar in the gentry because the magic powers of a Duke was almost unmatched, and according to some ancient regulation, He should have become the New King, because he was the most powerful and would therefore protect more efficiently the people. The weaker son, and officialy New King, because of heredity wouldn't step down. And from the turmoil emerged an obscure Baron, who excited the hatred of all mages in the lower people, raised an army of peasants and tried to overthrow and KILL, most important here, all magic users in the Kingdom, promising a worldwide wipe of all of them to his people. His main argument is that Mages are, basicaly, thiefs, because what they call "magic" is a way of redistributing forces and goods in a manner convenient for them (Think of hitler's way of talking about jews...). They are crooked and ugly, and probably smelly too. When they "summon" a roasted chicken, they simply take it somewhere alive, give its lifeforce to someone or something else, use the wind to blow its feathers away, and channel the sun's heat into cooking it, and everything happens in so small a time that no one will ever know who did what. SO this Baron is telling everybody that any magic user is basically a potential killer, because he has the power to do so. The problem here, is that approximately one person out of four is a magic user, it is pretty common and is used in domestic ways such as helping to saw, wash, grab a hot plate without being burned... Some more powerful mages are used to enhance the quality of the soil to improve the crops, this sort of thing. The best mages are used to make war, and summon the elements to side with them.

But the baron, being himself NOT a magic user, prefered to create some sort of "technology" which would help him with his conquest plans. He created, on his own, black powder, primitive guns, VERY primitive canons, and is actually trying to harness the power of steam. No success here yet, but the idea is here. The technology level of his army should be a blend of 16th century Spain, early 18th England and, for the look, of any fantasy setting army you could think of. Maybe with a touch of early 20th, late 19th France for the flashy look and the kind of armors that could be seen in late 15th Spain on top of that. Basically, think of conquistadores in red pants with bad guns. This is sufficient to earn them a small advantage in skirmishes, but not enough on a big battlefield. At least in the beginning. Because the baron decided to create huge factories behind his citadel, in gorges, so that no one could get to them unless they went through his castle first.

Anyway.

The story will be about, on the first hand, about a Commander in the Baron's army who is seeking revenge, absolution and motivation for his actions, and his wife and son, seeking protection in him.

It begins with him being informed that the village in which his wife and son were living having been infected with a sort of curse, which turned all the population into sorts of flesh eating zombies. Since the village had just been taken beyond enemy lines, the hierarchy believes that it is either a weapon the magic using enemy used, or someone who tried to force his neighbours to act on his will, but couldn't master a too difficult spell. Anyway, they couldn't wait any longer, and had to send a batallion of flame-throwers (maybe a little too techno , could be discussed and turned into something less impressive, but equally burning) Learning that, our Commander, I decided to call Fargo Stiffback for the time of development, for he is undertaking a voyage and is probably a little stiff in the back, due to lifelong military commanding, decides to try to go faster than the courier, to reach his village before the burners and find a way of rescuing his wife and son before it's too late. he leaves.

Meanwhile, his wife and son come back from... somewhere (I just couldn't find a reason for them to have gone from their house. Visiting an old aunt, maybe? Or maybe they had fled in the woods knowing thatthe frontline had gone past and beyond their village?) and find the village described as previously. Knowing that they can't get more than they have on them, they hit the road and try to rally the Citadel to find their husband and father.

Fargo will reach the village but won't be able to rescue anyone, since they really have turned into a bunch of flesh eating zombies, and have to go back and wander aimlessly on the roads. He will eventually meet a woman of approximately the same age as his, but he can't tell for sure how old she is. They will travel together for a while, and feelings should evolve from this situation. She should tell him that the order, far from coming from the Baron, came from his first helper, the Archdeacon, and that He is really the reason of the loss of his family, because He is the one in charge of everything for quite a while, the Baron only being happy in his "lab". He will decide to take revenge on him by killing the Archdeacon, and possibly the Baron too.

Meanwhile, his wife and sons have travelled by sideroads, because they too have seen the uniforms going on the roads and that of the army of the Commander come down and burn their village. When they finally reach the Citadel, their are greeted by Fargo's envious Lieutenant, who tells them that he threw his demission, and is no longer in place. I think he should even try to abuse his new position and his former superior's wife too. Then the family leaves the Citadel to hit the road again.

Then Fargo comes back to the Citadel at night, uses his knowledge of the rounds and of passageways to come back to the center of the Citadel. His Lieutenant intercepts him, and believing he was coming back to get his position back, tells that his wife and son are still alive and have come to the citadel. This delays him too much to accomplish the planned murder. he goes back.

A while goes by while he searches high and low to find them, but he knows that he taught them well in surviving and hiding, and won't find them early enough. Then he decides that his best chance of having them back is to let the world know that he killed the Baron and the Archdeacon, and that he is in charge at the Citadel, so that the war will end, and they will be able to travel back safely to meet him there. A new nightly expedition is organized, and he does NOT meet his lieutenant, which does NOT delay him. When he enters the archdeacon's office, he finds him there, waiting fo him.

The discussion that follows is about the real motives for the Archdeacon's entring into the Baron's service. In fact, the Baron has poisonous ideas, but doesn't know how to speak in public. In fact, for five years now, the Archdeacon has been the only one seen publicly, the Baron being even rumoured dead. But the Archdeacon only used the baron's crusade to rid the world of a poisonous woman, his former wife, who also was a priestess, and she is the one responsible for the creation of the flesh eating zombies. But he understands that, now that Fargo has located her and has come to friendly terms with her (for she is the woman fargo has ben travelling for some time now), it will be easier for fargo to kill her, thus putting an end for the Archdeacon's dedication to the baron's crusade. that woman has been trying to perform correctly a ritual sacrifice that would give her a sort of eternal life for the past 30 years. So far, she has only successed in remaining kinda young in appearance, but by the look of the zombies, the Archdeacon can tell that she is nearing success. She must be killed soon. And so should he, in order to give fargo more leeway. So he just waits there, with a lingering smile, sorta happy to finally destroy his ex-wife. And Fargo kills him, then cuts his head, and goes back out of the citadel, unfortunately not unseen.

He then comes back to meet that priestess woman, with the head of the Archdeacon. She thanks him with a smile, and then knocks him out cold, seizes the head, and walks into a nearby village, beginning to perform again that dreaded ritual which will potentially allow her to become eternal, brandishing the head. The village starts to suffer at once, the shrieks of his nearby wife and son wake fargo up, and he recognizes them.

The Lieutenant decides to come up, leading a batallion of men to seize the killer of the Archdeacon, declaring that he will be the next right hand of the Baron.

Fargo stands up, goes and kisses his wife and son good bye, and jumps into the fire circle, joining the priestess into her dance of death. He is last seen pushing his sword through her chest, before the hall crumbles on them. A sort of heatwave rushes out of the building, sweeps over the village and landscape, and everything stops as it had begun, silently.

The Lieutenant finally arrives, demands explanations, only the wife of Fargo can tell him what happened. She is proud of telling everybody that it was her husband who killed the woman responsible for all this. The Lieutenant smiles a bad smile, and has her put in chains, along with her son, for being related to the mad man who slain the Archdeacon, and announces that he is the next helper of the Baron blah blah blah. (insert raving discourse here...) The wife and son are to be put into jail.

After they are gone, the wind blows the ashes aside, and a hand is revealed. It is unburned, unwounded, and suddendly clenching into a fist, struggling for some space. [End]



What i would like you to help me with, is to define the adjectives which best describe the internal character of Fargo. He seems to be obsessive, hard beaten, hard-boiled, and soldier at heart, but not extraordinarily interested in killing people anymore. He is more doing his job than saving the world. I know that I would like the Lieutenant (called Doppler Telltale so far...) to be a sort of "scar" in Lion King, you know, ambitious, unctous and mean... But as you see, the reasons for doing things are pretty fleshed out already: the main character wants to change the world in order to recover his wife and sons.

I'd like you to tell me what you think of this story. Does it need changing? Does it have plot holes? Should anything be changed altogether? Anything you think could hurt sensibilities?