"Anything else I should clarify?"

Hell yes!! tons of things! You are talking of two opposite political factions. Then what are their politics, what aims, what means? Why are they opposite? In what are they opposite? bear in mind that, theoretically at least, Republicans and democrats are standing and fighting for the same things, only named differently, right?

And something is still curious in your idea, but I can't quite place it...

All of them four are male, right? And you are imagining a patriarchal society, still right? Then, in a patriarchal society, you get the alpha male, and the beta female, who are both leaders, and then you get the other females who will receive the semen of the alpha male, and expand the gene pool while narrowing on the alpha's, and the other males, who will play the role of followers, but only because they can't beat the alpha and take his place. If this happens, then they become the alpha and the new contenders are fought off. A patriarchal society is ALL about fighting. yes, this is what is giving me trouble: you are trying to establish a patriarchal society freed of struggle, which seems absolutely impossible to imagine. A matriarchal society is about spawning and swarming, like the bees. A patriarchal society is about killing any potential contender, and having as much power as possible, like the wolves.

And there is still something strange. you want them to be in a schol as background settings. So what is taught in this school? And what are the reasons for those misfits to happen to happen to be in this school? Misfits aren't usually found in elite schools unless they are elite misfits. And a beta male isn't likely to be elite. something is going wrong here.

And just to make it plain, I don't think you'll find a way to create a dynamic which will allow to contenders to work hand in hand without having them have a row or a fight of their own form. Contenders are fighters in their more evident aspect. You can't be in opposite factions without being somehow forced to fight. In any way you choose. You'll find yourself forced to come to this masculine approach you so don't like, despite your efforts. Unless you find a way of blurring the differences between the factions, and making it less political.

sorry.

As for the way of finding and creating plots, I don't know. maybe it comes from the way I think. Everything happens for a reason. If you can't find any valid reason for a thing to happen other than "it would be convenient for my novel", then expand your scope a bit, and add elements that will help you make the logical steps to your conclusion. Remember that each step is a conclusion in itself, and that some characters may have plans for events that the reader is not aware of. Everything is not as it seems. And I have a strong preferences for stories where everything is in fact very different from what it seems at first sight. Everything should have double meaning.

I told you that I was going from facts to the story. that is true, but facts only happen once you have a very definite background for them. Facts can be elements of the personal history of each characters, if you have characters. And I would recommend not trying to weave a story around personal relations too much. I find it too difficult. What I find easy is to try to understand how your characters are working, and set them in motion in your world. If they want to have relations, let them do so. But don't try to force relations upon characters that won't fit together, even for the purpose of your story. Try to understand them deeply, feel like them, and understand what in their personal history sets them in motion, and what part of their world they fit in. What is going in a way that does not help the characters? what is helping him evolve in a way that pleases him? from that deep understanding, you can deduce some numerous steps for your story. At least, this is my belief, and probably the way I function to find stories. I don't plot, as a whole. I simply give a background and potential characters. And against that background, my characters find their natural place. i don't know how. most of the time, they do things that surprise me. They are their own masters. They have a life of their own, not one I have imposed over them.

[Edited by - Fournicolas on May 3, 2005 2:40:22 PM]

>.< This post is by sunandshadow, again.

Patriarchal societies are not just about fighting. Once an alpha male gets in power he probably wants peace so his clan can prosper and his offspring don't get killed. Plus, we're talking about a civilized society organized enough to build a school and have some level of technology - even if the species was originally quite violent, they would have had to learn some ways to channel their instincts to less damaging ends, like maybe ritual non-fatal combat (wargames?), or perhaps traditionally all non-alpha males are non-combatants, and there is a taboo against threatening or hitting them - instead any complaint or threat against them would have to be made to the alpha male responsible for them, i.e. their father, husband, or older brother.

Rather than wolfpacks, think about Scottish clans or native american tribes - there are often peaceful alliances between them and no violence within the clan/tribe, and only sometimes seasonal raiding between them. Or feudal europe - a king ruled his own castle/territory, and by alliance the castle/territories of all the dukes who were allied with him, and each duke ruled his own castle/territories. There wasn't any combat between the allied dukes, they fought by the more subtle means of courtly politics: giving gifts and loans, alliance marriages, spreading malicious gossip about their enemies, blackmail, using drugs or seduction to get someone in trouble or get info out of them. This is the type of society and the type of conflict I want, only on a smaller scale - instead of a clan being about 50 people or more, it would only be 3-8 adults and their children, and then these small clans would be allied under a regional leader/patriarch. Struggle is good, I just prefer more subtle, non-violent struggles - the struggle to be the best student, to win the competition, to seduce the person who is resisting, to persuede the secret-keeper to tell you what they know, to win by having the sneakiest plan.

I better talk a bit more about alpha and beta males and females too. The ones in my worldbuilding are not the same as the ones in a wolfpack. Instead, betas are a new mutation, caused by a variant X chromosome which makes them smaller, more delicate, and having more feathers than the standard alphas. Because the mutation only arose about 200 years ago there are still very few betas. Beta females are generally considered more attractive than alpha females, although some alpha males prefer alpha females. Beta females are those with one copy of the variant X chromosome; beta males are those with two copies. They are genetically female, but have male genetalia because of the effects of having no normal copies of the X chromosome, only mutated ones. Thus they are all gay because they essentially have female brains in male bodies. Alpha males are a genetic class, not a social one, but within this class only some become dominions (clan leaders, social alphas) while some, especially younger brothers, become submates to a dominion. A submate is like a subordinate co-husband - both get access to females, either because they each have a wife(ves) or because they share. For example, if the dominion and his submate are not brothers, they might marry each others' sisters, such that each one's child would be the other's neice/nephew. So all adults in a clan are contributing their genes to the next generation (except beta males, who are sterile). A submate is a submate because he doesn't have a dominant personality, and is not a rival to his dominion, but a loyal supporter - if his dominion were killed he would probably marry another one rather than become one himself, since he is not suited to being a leader.

Thus we have Ravennin, who needs a submate to be a dominion, but doesn't get along with other males. Except here's Attranath, as submissive a male as you will ever find, who has a crush on Ravennin and aches to belong to a strong leader... Then you have Merru, Attranath's best friend. Merru is neither a dominant nor a submissive - so will he be able to get along with Ravennin, or will Ravennin be jealous of Attranath's closeness with Merru? Lieann has some of the instincts of a female but male anatomy and hormones, where does he fit into the family? At the end, I want everything to work out such that Ravennin is the Dominion, Merru is the submate, Attranath is Ravennin's 'wife', and Lieann is Merru's 'wife'. And then to complete their identity as a family they'd have to get some children from somewhere - but that's all the way at the end of the book in the resolution, and I can handle that part myself - I'm pretty good at initial incidents and resolutions, it's just major complications, reversals, and climaxes I have trouble with.

I suspect this still needs more explanation - a science fiction novel is a pretty complicated idea, it makes sense that it takes a lot of typing to explain it. So what still doesn't make sense?

Oh, duh, I forgot the political factions. I don't want the two factions to be in conflict because they're different, I want them to be in conflict because they're the same, maybe two noble families vying for control of the whole region or ownership of the school or the hand of the princess... anything like that will do, it should be something that isn't too important because it's not the focus of the story at all, just the social background dynamic. Like in Romeo and Juliet - "Two households, both alike in dignity, in fair Verona where we lay our scene, from ancient grudge break to new mutiny, where civil blood makes civil hands unclean. (where sneaky plots and blackmail stir up trouble.) From forth the fatal loins of these two foes (two) pair(s) of starcross'd lovers take their life..." Only in this version love defeats prejudice and the lovers get to live happily ever after rather than committing suicide. ^_^

Hmm, there's an idea - maybe whetever the two factions are fighting over, the new clan formed by the 4 main characters could grab it out from under both their noses - that would be a pretty good way to show them defeating society and gaining racognition as being a 'real' clan. :)

So, yeah, we've got characters M and A starting out allied with faction X, characters L and R starting out allied with faction Y, they meet each other, figure out both factions are the bad guys, defect to form new faction Z, and defeat factions X and Y by using adaptability, strategy, charisma, and faith to snatch for themselves whatever X and Y were using them to pursue. That's a plot, right? Sounds like a plot to me...

[Edited by - sunandshadow on May 3, 2005 4:03:04 PM]

Well, yes. It's probably a plot, but definitely NOT a story. And to Hell if I know what to make out of it.

Oh, well, I guess I'll just have to give it a try anyway...

Both "groups" or "factions" are vying (not actually fighting, this is important) over something. It happens in a school, which, from what has been stated earlier has barracks, which define the groups. Maybe they are all trying to get the best marks, because it means something special? Maybe having the best marks allows the leader of the group or barracks to create his own clan? But what ahppens to those that do NOT have the best marks? do they simply have to get into an already existing clan if they can? If they are indeed vying over the best marks, there will be no physical violence, only verbal intimidation, and I think this would suit your taste better. Only I HAVE to tell that I find it a bit of a dull reason to fight. It lacks something to flesh it out. Too early to tell yet. Let's go further.

Oh yes. Now I remember what has been nagging me for so long.

"The beta Male is gay. He has to, because all Beta males are gay."

Is this some sort of circular thought or something that eludes me? Does he have to be gay because he is a beta male, and beta males do not get the females, so have to resort to something else to enjoy their sexuality, or does he have to be a beta male in order to enjoy his homosexuality? I think it would be more likely in this form, but you're free to object, this is your story, after all. Maybe he was built as an alpha male, but has different feelings about sexuality preventing him to spawn, and that downranks automatically as a beta. But I really don't know why all betas are gays.

[edit] Okay, I just read once more through the thread and realized that I had asnwered your post too early. I have skipped your first post, as anonymous poster. Okay. It sounds a bit curious to have a part of the population transform itself and nobody find it outrageous, but as you choose. I would have made it one of the most obvious reason of racism. It changes everything to the core of society, therefore should be highly despised by anyone attached to tradition.

And your definition of clan or multicellular family is still giving me trouble. I can't think of any bio-logical reason to end evolution in this kind of family including "3 to 8 adults and their kids"... It usually requires much more people to make a living on any kind of food, unless you are strictly carnivorous, and then, the unit is, well, THE unit. It amounts to one, and nothing more, usually. think of the tigers. Or you can have the model of the wolves and the lions, where you find One top leader, which is either very active or very passive, and the hunters around him or her, which bring back the food, plus the kids, but no pretender ever. pretenders and contenders are either banned from the group, or submissive, or killed when they try to take the power by brute strenght. If they kil the former leader, then everything remains the same, but with a new leader instead. this kind of family is ethno-logically not viable. So please reconsider this kind of formation into something more logically acceptable. Or try to define the laws which have sprung those units into natural evolution.

[End edit]

OK. So you want two groups, and want your winning group to be composed of both sides. So maybe there is a social component to the thing? Maybe there is the rich sods on the one side, and the poor sods on the other side, and both are vying over the best marks because that means creating a clan, but mainly for pride, because money can still buy everything in this world as in any other. So pride should be a mjor component of your settings. Maybe a little in the Classic japanese sense.

Okay, so now, we have the richs angainst the poors vying FOR PRIDE AND HONOUR to get the best marks in school because that means they can get the right to create a clan with the rest of their barracks. This sounds more like the setting of a story.

OKay.

Now where do your characters come from, and why?

Obviously, Tinkerer M needs a LOT of money to enjoy his little expereriments. And if A is to side with him in the beginning, then A is one the "rich sods" too. I maintain my assumption that he is just a little childish, and is probably bullied for that, even if he is one head taller than everybody, and could probably squeeze them in his arms until their eyes gouge out. Brutish, tall, brawny, but too good natured and childish to become a leader of his own. He tends to stick to M because M is not as haughty as most of the other in their original barracks. he is quite happy to have someone ask him politely to use his strength at times, and help him out with the most difficult subjects as arithmetics or anything else taught there.

Then, it stands to reason that both L and R are on the "poor sods" side. Both have great aspirations for themselves, and would like to be leaders of their own clan. L, on the other side knows that being second in command allows for more leeway, and is probably the best balance between power and responsibility. He only lusts for power and a possibility to display his skills. R is another ball of wax entirely. He is the son of someone who is not rich, but he has had access to someone to teach him out to use his best traits that are smooth talking and nice appearance, and charisma, to best almost anybody in his range. He probably have played as a child with the leader of the rich team, who doesn't respect him because of his social status. He should learn better this time. (Maybe he is the son of the private teacher of the rich sods leader?) R should also be a socialy beta male. Not a naturally born leader. he should lack at least one of the prerequisite to become a social alpha, and work hard to compensate this flaw by his fortes, that are talking and charisma. This way, it explains why he is thrown out of his "poor sods" team, and theoretically denied the possibility to create a clan, without the backup of a number of comrades. L will follow him out of the barracks because he thinks HE has a chance of rallying some more people to his cause through talking and negociations.

Stop. I see a problem here. If the group is of four persons, and it requires them to have overall higher marks than the other groups, it means, to make it even, that other groups are about equal, and that makes three groups of four persons, that is twelve pupils. I find it pretty small for a school. Unless R and L move triggers something that has never been seen before, and spawns a great number fo new groups, creating a new dynamic. But there is another problem. In a society that accepts only ONE alpha male through school, first, where stand the females in this school? do they even enter the ground? And second, what happen to the loosers? The penalty should not be too much of a problem, in order to prevent loss of force. Once again, that is unless the females greatly outnumber the males, but in this setting, I can't imagine why they would renounce the power. Bogus.

In the end, it will probably be a showdown between the "Rich Sods" and the "four upcoming brats" because they will have the exact same amount of points, and therefore require a final test. There will be a sort of "weakest link" contest, but in a "chicken" form, or final shootout in soccer, or what have you. You have to pair two students and have them answer in turn to questions on set subjects. It will be probable that there will be a hierarchy in both teams on marks terms, and that it will utlimately be down to strategy.

It will be like this story of two emirs vying to know who got the bas hara of horses. They made races where the best of each hara fought each other, then hte second best, then the third best, then the fourth and fifth, and never could they be parted. Then a grand vizir came to the ear of his master, and said, let me arrange that, and you will win. So he paired the best horse of his opponent with the worse of his master. But he paired the second best of the opponent with his master's best, and the third best with the second best, and the fourth best with the third best, and thus won 4 to 1 for his master. Sometimes you've got to loose something, if you want to get it all.

But now, it's all up to you to know who you choose to sacrifice in this shootout and why. Is it going to be the captain? Is it going to be the weakest minded of all, A, who is more at ease in Physical prowess?

[Edited by - Fournicolas on May 4, 2005 5:54:15 AM]

OKay. This is my third post in this thread in only one day. I probably should get a life. Get some fresh air...

Anyway. I'm probably too "old fashioned", but I can't imagine guys having sex and then HAVING BABIES. This is just beyond the scope of my possibilities. Usually, it requires both genders to create life. Even if there is a third gender around somewhere.

And I just suddendly realized some other thing. You are asking for a military school that provide people with classy education in a world that does not know war? Then where does this military school education comes from? What does it teach? If it is a military school, then it is very unlikely that there won't be any physical violence. If it is not, then we need to define what kind of thing is taught there, and what kind of persons come out.

Plus I remembered that you wanted to make it so that there are 4 years of approximately 50 people each in this school. So where does this settle? Are the four main characters in first, third or last year?

First year, they will be ignorant of the rules of this microcosm, just like the reader, but will get beaten down by the fourth years top dogs. If they are fourth years, then they should know everything of the background worldbuilding by now. unless they integrate the school directly in fourth year for some reason. Third year is probably the best of all worlds, because it allows some more leeway. They still have things to learn, but they might be able to put up a decent fight against any fourth year.

Things are beginning to become extremely difficult here, because you are trying to squeeze everything and its opposite in a story, in order to display some characters you have thought about. I am not criticizing the way you construct your stories, but I have to admit that I don't work so well in this context. I am doing my best to invent something that can rationalize everything, and find it Hellish.

Things would be much more simple if the story could involve, for some reason, family units which wouldn't be so curious. If it was simply a matter of making things happen in order to make Ravennin the leader of a new clan, which would include many families, and make him the equivalent of a sage, then it would be cake. If it was about revolutionizing the society in its entirety, it would probably be easier, since it would involve some fight at some point.

But creating a plot which has definite characters I don't understand perfectly, the imposed figure of banning all physical violence, HALF a definite background and a definite ending I don't understand at all, I find it difficult.

For a start, I don't understand how can anything happen if there is no opposition at stake. The group has to be pitched against something, and both faction X and Y should be pitched against the same thing PLUS each other. And I can't magine what it is they are fighting for. I told you pride and honor would potentially work, but I am not sure they would be functional, in fact. Because, if anyone wins, it means everybody else fails, and in a society which promotes Pride and honor, loss equals to death, and you'll have to crite about it, which you don't. You seem to want a situation which triggers enough adrenalyne in the characters (and subsequently in the reader) to make it worth betraying your original faction, while having no dramatic consequences. You want an opposition with no fight. You want a military school in a world that does not care about militaries...

Well, first, thank you for spending your time on this - I can see that my half-baked ideas are making you confused, but talking about it is helping me get a clearer idea of what shape my book should be, so you are definitely helping me. :)

Quote: "The beta Male is gay. He has to be, because all Beta males are gay."

Is this some sort of circular thought or something that eludes me? Does he have to be gay because he is a beta male, and beta males do not get the females, so have to resort to something else to enjoy their sexuality, or does he have to be a beta male in order to enjoy his homosexuality? I think it would be more likely in this form, but you're free to object, this is your story, after all. Maybe he was built as an alpha male, but has different feelings about sexuality preventing him to spawn, and that downranks automatically as a beta. But I really don't know why all betas are gays.

Beta males are gay because they are genetically female and it is programmed into their genes for them to be attracted to alpha males the same way it is programmed into the genes for females to be attracted to alpha males. So beta males are like women that accidentally got born with dicks. I'm not sure that the details of the genders and arcys are really important to figuring out the plot though. It's only important that Lieann be some sort of discriminated against outcast - he could be an albino or something if I decided I didn't want to have beta males and females at all. Similarly with babies, adoption would work fine if one didn't want to get into the idea of male pregnancy.

So, let's focus on the heart of the matter, the plot. I proposed that faction X, which characters M and A are associated with, and faction Y, which characters L and R are associated with, are rivals in attempting to acquire Q. We don't know what Q is yet, but it should give its possessor power within the patriarchy - enough power that if R has it he can declare himself a clan leader. So M and A struggle against L and R, but in the process they discover both factions X and Y are the bad guys, and the only ones they can trust are each other, so they all defect and form a new faction Z. Both factions X and Y are characterized by being traditional and thinking inside the box, but the new faction Z, since it is made up of misfits, is characterized by being radical and thinking outside the box. The 4 characters combine their strengths (strategy, creativity, charisma and faith) to steal Q for themselves and use it to establish themselves as an official clan, which fulfills all their personal goals/dreams.

This is kind of the reverse of your example of the prison escape. In the prison escape everything starts out clear (inmates vs. prison) and ends muddled (only some escape, M loves L but L is a lesbian who doesn't love him back, etc. However what I want is the opposite dynamic, where everyone starts off alone and with barriers between them and the others, and the barriers get eliminated one at a time. The barriers between the characters are eliminated first, then the couple, (or in this case foursome) has one last decisive battle against an external threat and their victory creates a space of safety for the couple/family to have its happy ending. This is a standard kind of plot for a romance novel. The thing that the group is pitched against is the barriers keeping them oppressed and preventing them from reaching their dreams - essentially, they are opposed to their lack of power within the patriarchy. So are X and Y, which is why they want to get Q, because Q will give them that power.

So, okay, you said "It's probably a plot, but it's definitely not a story." What does it take to make it a story? Just adding details to flesh it out? I can see what you mean when you say that trying to rationalize the story to do all the character and theme things I want to do is hellishly difficult - this is probably where I've been getting stuck all along. I know it's possible to create characters and let the plot grow out of them, I know some professional authors who do things this way, but usually they are 'make-it-up-as-they-go-along' types who would never try to outline a plot ahead of time like we are doing, so they can't give us any advice about how to do it.

Anyway, let me take a turn at trying to make this plot idea more story-like, maybe that will help. The main question is, what is Q, and how will it give its posessor power? Q should be something only a clan leader can use, and which is difficult to get, which is why at the beginning only X and Y, two big political units which already have some power and money, are trying to get it. So it can't be just grades - good grades are not really an important qualification for being a clan leader. The leader (R) doesn't have to be the smartest one, he could have smart advisors (L and M) instead. But I like the idea of a team vs. team competition with Q as the prize. Q might be provided by the king as a reward for the most capable new clan formed in the school. (Which doesn't have to be a military school, it could be a space academy (think the academy in star trek), or maybe just an academy for the children of the noble clans of the region. Maybe Q is a territory and castle, or maybe there are only a set number of noble clans and one dies out and Q is the opening for a new clan to replace that one? And BTW I was thinking that A would be starting his 2nd year at the school, and M would be given to him as a slave/pet. L and R... either they do not attend the school, and are entering the competition as an outside team, or they would be starting their 3rd or 4th year facing the big problem that they don't have anyone who wants to be part of their family.

So there's some ideas. Oh and let me see if I can explain why I think a family structure like this would indeed be ethologically feasable. First, let's assume that these dragons lay eggs. One big egg, almost half the mass of the mother, per pregnancy. And then the egg will need to be sat on and kept warm for a while. Plus, lets add some weasels who love to eat eggs, such that one adult dragon must be awake and on the lookout for them at all times (before they invented houses to keep the weasels out anyway). So, if two sisters, sisters-in-law or two mates of the same male nested together, their offspring would have a much higher survival rate because one female could sleep on the eggs keeping them warm, one could watch vigilantly for weasels, and the male(s) could hunt to feed the females and fight other males to defend the territory. Even if the two females were not related, it would benefit one to have the other's egg survive because having siblings gives the child a higher chance of producing offspring later.

Does it make more sense now?

Yes, it does!! And I feel so stupid for not being able to think outside the box!! dragons hatch!! They are not humans and are not viviparians... They lay eggs. Good one! indeed a very good one. Only, the idea of having an egg half your size comming out of your asshole... ouch! maybe you could fine tune it down some sizes? make it XL instead of XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXL? Maybe it's twice or thrice as big as an ostrich egg? which would be already perfectly big enough to host something as big as a baby human when full size. I admit that human babies are not fully functional when they come out, whereas most animal ones are. But maybe dragons are halfway? They hatch eggs in which babies grow to some suitable size to come out, but have to grow some more before being able to really go on their own?

Anyway.

Having a band of outcasts banding to form a group is not a novel idea. What is still bothering me is "why does he have to be gay? does it have an immediate impact on the story?" The way I see this, it probably has for you. You are trying to write a romance, and therefore need a way to introduce some sexual behavior in it. But I am not entirely at ease with homosexuality. I don't mean that I have problems with homosexuality in general, simply that I lack personal knowledge of that to write something that could remotely pass for anything but a rehash of Birdcage... this has to be where you are most deeply involved.

On the other hand, no matter how hard you try, you'll find yourself faced with a big problem, one that i have stated earlier on in this thread:
"bonds only tighten if gone through trouble" like knots through water.

You will want to have trouble await them down the alley. And the more important reward is, the more trouble and envy you'll find there.

You said that a clan is dying out, and that the king, or duke, or whatever, is offering the possibility for new ones to create their own clan. It shouldn't be something very common, but neither unheard of. It is something that happens every time a clan dies out. Males from all over the ruler's territory are gathered and those willing to start the clan will have to compete over it. It should simply be a privilege, which means private law, as a fact. Now why am I saying this? It should come back later. It must have something with terry Pratchett. yes. I remember now. It is from him I learned that. And the reason why I am thinking of his books is that it reminds me of the Kelda in "The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents", in his collection of Discworld novels for kids. The same happens whenever a kelda dies, a call is sent through the other clans, and girls from there come and find a husband in the new clan. The one who gets married there gets the title of Kelda, and ensures the lineage. The same could happen there. A call is sent throughout the clans, for a new clan leader. It now belongs to tradition that potential clan leaders come to the competition with friends to support and help them, and that those friends are rewarded with the possibility to have babies too. They help expand the clan.

But usually, being the leader of the clan means having more females than the others, in order to promote the leader's genes. The others are authorized to have only one mate.

Ok.

So now, we have a competition for a dominant position. I don't think it should happen in school. The whole concept of school in here is giving me hard times. If the clans are already social through an animal-like way then they have no use for the school. They probably educate their own young, like the american indian tribes. Potentially, even the system of beliefs is passed on through talking and telling...

BANG!!!!

They are trying to get a shaman!!

The leader has to be a shaman to lead the rest of the group. He has to have some special powers, like you said. He has to find his totem. The usual way of defining the leader is indeed the old fashion. All the groups are sent in the wilderness for some time, and have to survive by themselves for two whole time cycles, whatever you choose them to be. During this first period of time, you can describe rather fully the way each main character fits in regard of the others.

Then the second part begins, where they are all called towards a certain place, like a magic circle in the forest, or a cave, somewhere. Everything happens in the same valley, for everybody, in order to make sure that no one cheats. Maybe it happens in the valley of the died out clan. Anyway.

But from that point on, the leades have to cast their totems, and pitch them in a fight against other totems. The result of these spiritual fights is usually the equivalent of a Knock Out. But two particular potential shamans are showing some cruelty in their own traits and fights. Their totem does not only knock the other out, but it also tears it to ribbons, and kills the spirit within the bodies, leaving only empty envelopes. And when they should show regrets, they scorn. They are bad guys.

From that point, some followers of the two main teams decide that they don't want to belong to a clan which totem is an incarnation of cruelty. They split, and decide to go their own route. L&R should even have an occasion to pitch their own totem against that of A&M. The outcome should be something that is unheard of, even in legends, the totems have no desire to fight, they circle each others and come back to their respective shamans after leaving a mark on the body of the other. This kind of fight should be spectacular enough for everybody in the valley to see it. Think of images displayed on the clouds, or maybe BE the clouds, or smoke, or three-dimensional holograms, anything, but HUGE!!!

They decide that, being bonded by their own totems, they will fight side by side, and create their own clan. Symbolism is your forte, show some creativity.

Now the part that I like the least. Personal relationships.

I can imagine that Attranath is submissive, but I can't understand why he would become gay all of a sudden. Unless he already was gay, and Lieann was his lover. Then why would he change to Ravennin? Because ravennin is the designated Shaman of the group, because he can gather both totems? Yes. the outcome of hte fight is that both totems went inside ravennin. It left Attranath perfectly safe, but longing to belong to ravennin as well. Lieann is lonely, and feels some interest in the proximity of another male, Merru, who is still one of the most active in the group. He is the survivalist of them, and provides most of the food needed. The way their relations deepen is entirely left to you. They could starve or feel relieved because of Merru's skills. But that would leave Ravennin without the skills you were predestining him for. Oh, well, I changed that too. I am famous for ruining everything and reconstructing from the ashes... Merru is the adaptator, the creative one, the survivalist. He is the one any clan leader would dream to have, because he would provide fod for more than fifteen persons by his own. While the other groups are hungry, this one is not.

Which makes them jealous.

When there is only three groups left, both cruel ones and the bunch of loners, a diplomatic move should be made by both cruel ones to recover all four of them, under different reasons. Maybe a shaman is feeling impressed by ravennin's trick of absorbing the totem, and is afraid that he may do the same, but won't admit it. Or maybe they want to get merru, but are prepared to accept the others too in order to secure that. When they see that the group won't split, they should take violent measures. But once again, we may find ourselves divided over this. I think that in this kind of trial, violence is a must.

So the other two should fight psychically, and the result should be the most violent psychical fight ever, with both tearing at each others, and finally one eating out the other alive, leaving the remaining stronger than in the beginning, and the other dead. Unexpected, unacceptable, unbearable, if the tradition was to be respected. But this valley needs a protector, a shaman, so so be it.

Only two are remaining. The cruelest, and the most curious one. The battle should show the bigger totem of the cruels becoming menacing while TWO closely related totems sping in the air, a short fight begins, then everything stops. The totems are circling each others, turning, whirling, and finally everything goes down on ravennin: he has absorbed another totem and a particularly big one a that, without fully knowing how.

A final showdown of the beaten shaman should occur at that moment. He should try to deal physically with ravennin. But either he is stopped by the fact that he no longer has followers, because he no longer has a totem, or he could be stopped BY them, because they now choose to follow his totem instead of him, and side with ravennin. And even if they are not accepted in Ravennin's clan, they are ready to accept his ruling.

The whole troup, except the beaten shaman, walks back to the entrance gorge to meet the ruler, and show who is the new shaman to everybody. Surprise, he was not one of the original contestants. Anyway, the law and the totems have spoken, and in quite a new way. A new clan now exists, blah blah blah...

Pleased? It changes quite a bit from original design. But after all, I have already imagined, what?, two? three designs for this story? A new one is not going too far, is it?

Yeah, I am pleased. :) I can tell we are getting closer to something that would work for me when I have to let the idea roll around in my mind for a few hours before I can decide if there are any flaws with it.

First of all I agree about the egg-size thing. I remember reading somewhere that bird eggs can be up to 1/3 the mother's mass (partly because eggs are more dense than birds, because birds are evolved to have hollow flight bones while eggs are almost all fluid, which gradually gets converted into an equivalent mass of baby bird.) A baby-sized egg would probably weigh about 10-11 lbs. (including amniotic sac and shell) - that's a bit more than 1/10 the mother's weight for beta females (who weigh around 90 lbs.) and a bit less than 1/10 for alpha females (who weigh around 130 lbs.). Since dragons are bipedal flightless 'birds' much like an ostritch, I'll look up ostritch eggs later to get a guideline to work from. I agree with the idea that baby dragons should need to be cared for like baby humans and birds, although I don't know about the feeding-them-by-throwing-up idea - maybe make them born mature enough to eat banannas and bread and similar soft foods.

For the homosexuality, if it makes it easier for you to think about it you can imagine Attranath and Lieann as girls. Me, I don't see that much difference between male and female characters - Ravennin is kind of extremely, unquestionably male, but the others have personalities that would work in either a male or female body. I'm making them male because I prefer to write male characters, I just have more fun doing male characters than female ones and I like the forbiddenness of homosexuality as a way of making the romance a big risk for the characters, but the story would probably work just as well with heterosexual or lesbian pairings.

So imagine that Attranath is the cute shy innocent girl who is given Merru as a bodyguard, and they aren't each other's types (Attra is too submissive and innocent for Merru, while Merru is not dominant enough for Attra) so instead of really being lovers they do the best-friends-with-benefits thing. Merru thinks of Attranath as a little sister and Attranath thinks of Merru as a big brother. Lieann OTOH is someone Ravennin's father would dissaprove of (for whatever reason the rest of society dissaproves of her and she is an outcast). So Ravennin is trying the whole time not to get emotionally attached to her because they both know he can't marry her, and she's trying to guard her emotions from getting hurt so she's not loving toward him either. They have a disfunctional relationship which is hurting them both. So then when the two faction run into each other Lieann and Merru fall for each other (despite Lieann's fear of being hurt again, and Merru's worries about being loyal to Attranath), and Attranath and Ravennin fall for each other (despite the problem that this is a Romeo-and-Juliet pairing that Ravennin's father would not just disapprove of, but maybe even disown him because of it).


On to the Shaman/Totem Battle idea. Well, I think this captures the essence of what I want to do, although the details need to be reworked to fit my tastes and worldbuilding. One question - the school, as previously described, serves the very important social function of letting the teenage dragons mingle and figure out who they want to marry. If there isn't a school, how would this happen? Parties thrown by the noble families? Arranged marriages? An annual festival/tournament?

The idea of having spirit battles is interesting. Maybe a bit too superhero-ish for my tastes - my instinct would be more to have psychic duels inside the landscape of the combatants' minds, with lots of metaphorical objects symbolizing their memories. But the real problem is that this one-on-one physical combat doesn't require Lieann and Merru's special abilities. Now, if they were all in a spaceship or a simulator playing a wargame, or in some sort of survival challenge where they could make traps and improvise creative tricks, that would be better for showing how the 4 characters' unique abilities are all vital to the team. Hmm, I don't want to be too cliche and make Q symbolized by a foozle that the team has to fight through a dungeon of magical traps to get to, although functionally that might work. That's why I like the idea of a school - because schools are great for setting crazy tests that bend the students' minds and stretch the limits of their abilities. Also, if you an your rivals are students at the same school, this makes it likely that you will run into the same annoying person again and again, so that they get more characterization and a rivalric relationship is built up and it means more when you finally do defeat them at the climax of the book, rather than facing enemies once in a fight and defeating them definitively so that you never have to fight them again.

I really am doubtful about whether this should be a fantasy world or a science fiction world. I am more experienced with science fiction and my instincts are more attuned that way, but fantasy might be an easier way to get the various plot and worldbuilding elements to make sense together, especially the fact that Merru somehow got to be a human mind in a dragon body. What do you think?

Science-fiction or Fantasy?

Well, you start out with the word "dragon". I think it should be a bad commercial move to give your readership a shock when they discover that "dragons" do not pair with fantasy. On the other hand, if you don't like, just go the sci-fi route, and drop the word dragon, not the concept. call them lizard ostrich, or slartibartfast, or whatever, but I don't think trying to mix the two would be a good move, unless you simply use the landscape and mood of the one to really describe the other, a la Star Wars. Star Wars is really about fantasy, and not really Sci-Fi... In my opinion, at least.

As for the sheer size of the egg, that was only a small joke. And a passing remark. Take it into account, or don't, do as you please, that was only to get your attention to the fact that many birds hatch many eggs at the same time, and it should therefore not be very big. But if only ONE can be hatched at a time, then yes, it can require up to maybe 1/5th of the weight of the mother, if it is a big egg. And a big mother obviously. I can't imagine a 26lbs egg coming out of the ass of a 5 feet mother. Unless the mother is rather spherical.

Homosexuality

I told you I have no problem imagining two guys kissing or having sex. it's only the reasons, I am trying to figure, since I am not particularly interested in caressing hairy backs. Hell mine is hairy, and I don't understand why my girlfriend likes it this way. Anyway.

Yes. in fact, things would be a lot more easy for me if they were of different genders. I can easily picture why a woman would want to get a male, or the oposite. I don't need explanatory pictures. But homosexuality, well... Since I am not homosexual, and don't feel like becoming so in the near future, it mind-boggles me as to why. And it therefore hinders my faculty to come up with good stories. I have to believe that I can overcome this by trying harder. Just give me a minute or two...



OK.



The story now. Why would they keep bumping into each others? Because they are in an enclosed area. Maybe a arena. Maybe a ratmaze experimental ground. If the freeform of the contest is displeasing you, then what about having a more ruled contest? Every team has to gather around the spot described earlier for the battles, and have to see and learn from it, while the others fight. Yes. spectators and contenders in a championship. they learn from each others. the more adaptable to other's strategies win. Then Lieann the strategist would be the most valuable element in a team. Losing him would seriously put the team in trouble. He should act as a mental trainer, a coach, something in this line. And the battles should take place in a pond, or at the bottom of a river, which landscape always change. Some general strategic rules should always be valid, and show how much the contenders have learned their lessons. It could be a little like a mental game of chess. Yes. And in the end the gambit wins. He who accepts to open his flank to trap the other one is the winner. Aceptable loss concept. Unheard of the bulldozer-style loser.

Okay. So now, we have Lieann the strategist and Merru the survivor settled. The Ravennin character is a wannabe shaman that discovers himself. He should have had another function beforehand. And we still have Attranath, who is the faithful follower. Maybe the shamans only tap in the belief of their followers to fight? No. too unreliable. They HAVE to tap in ther own strengths, thus making it a personal trial as much as a a team trial. but at some point, the belief of the followers should help. Maybe pump some vigour in the shaman by cheering, maybe they need to shed their blod to give some lifeforce. Yes. I can imagine a lsing shaman shouting at his folowers to shed more blood to regain enough power to win, and those being taken so aback that they choose to abandon him, and the fight is lost. he should learn to loose.

On the other hand, I can also imagine Attranath being so fanatic about Ravennin that he chooses to keep his lifeforce chanelling into the totem, so that Ravennin wins. But even if it helps, Ravennin would choose to stop his friend from killing himself, and find another way to win the battle, like using what Lieann taught him. Yes, I think this is a functionnal climax. Therefore the lesson Lieann taught should not be something he hammered often. More like a fluttering memory, something that couldn't be properly understood and remembered until the big moment. A tale containing a parable around campfire, a story from his past with the others at night, in the arms of Ravennin, anything that has just appeared once in the story in an meaningless way, and that takes forceful meaning now. If you can, take a look at Tai-chi master with Jet Lee to understand what i mean by "enlightenment". This is just the way I see this happening, only right in the middle of the fight.



As for Merru being a human brain in a Dragon body, I think I would handle that slightly differently. By human, I would only mean he shows human qualities, but mainly flaws. He is somewhat selfish, arogant, defiant, and still NEEDS to work in a team. He is quick tempered, and would probably often get in a brawl if there wasn't someone to hold him back, even if he is not that bulky and would probably get mashed to pulp sometimes. Yes. I think I would make him feel alien among aliens, rather than have him actually BE an alien trapped in an alien body. It wold imply to many POVs. So if THESE qualities are specifically HUMAN, then what are the qualities shown by the Dragons? Usually, I mean? Should they resemble Plato's atlants?

Now dig further...

As for dragons not going with science fiction, I can think of several science fiction books offhand which have the word Dragon in the title. Honestly, I think a wish-fullfillment story about a human becoming a dragon and finding a best friend, true love, and a family in the process has HUGE commercial potential, whether it is done in a science fiction or fantasy way. Look at the Dragonriders of Pern books - possibly the most popular dragon series ever, they are science fiction with psionics as their only fantasy-ish element.

I definitely can't have Merru's personality be described as 'human' and everyone else's be described as 'different from human' - that would completely defeat the purpose of a story about Merru 'going native' and becoming part of the alien society. I want the dragons to have thoughts and feelings just like humans, only cultural differences. My second choice for Merru would be to make him a dragon of a different race from the others, such that their culture and the worldbuilding would be new and alien to him, but then I'd have to figure out what the culture of his race of dragons is like, and I would strongly prefer that, since Merru is the sympathetic viewpoint character and the readers are supposed to be learning about the dragons along with him, he start out human in a culture much like ours/the readers'. I want the dragons to see Merru as an animal at first, until he figures out how to say and do the things that make him seem like a man within their culture. So for the first part of the book, the faithful Attranath will come to think of Merru as a person, while everyone else takes more convincing and teases Attranath for treating Merru like a person when he looks like an animal.

So here's a question for you - why might Attranath be given Merru as a slave/pet? If Attranath is a student at a school, Merru might be supposed to be a working animal something like a police dog, and the second year of school is when everyone gets theirs to start training. Or, it could have something to do with the dragons' idea that clan leaders' 'own' their followers, and owning a pet is good practice for being a leader and an emblem showing that this student comes from a noble family and is intended to become a leader. Then again, Merru might be a nobleman's exotic, expensive pet and Attranath is a low-ranking member of the nobleman's household (maybe a nephew or a cousin) assigned to be Merru's handler/trainer.