How I come up with a plot? For the life of me, I don't know. I am a puzzle and riddles lover, and sometimes have to resort to invent mines to keep me entertained. So I take two striking or amusing facts, be they from news or from History, or even, if I am going the fantastic route, some completely made up events, and try to believe hard that they are related in some way. Tis doesn't create a plot, it creates a story.

From that point on, I let my mind rave about what could link them. A good beginning is usually a conspiracy of some sort. In this respect, that movie with Mel Gibson as a paranoid taxi driver, called the Conspiracy Theory, I think, is particularly interesting, just to see how he is supposed to let his brain go...

A conspiracy does not necessarily involve particularly important or powerful people at the start. It is simply a secret action undertook by a group of people for a reason. You now need to find the pattern that links these two "apparently unrelated" facts.

Then, I try to get a good likeable character, and give him some detestable traits, just for the fun of it. A paladin is never as interesting as when he goes on a crusade against child abuse, and constantly sidetracks to his personal obsession of greasy hairs or dandruffs or loss of hair or whatever, for exemple.. Oh yeah. I also let a lot of repetitions sink in my writing. Sometimes they are funny, but also often prepare for something completely unexpected. When I have some good transitions, I turn towards the main events of the story.

There must be a crescendo in the progression of the story towards some sort of climax. A better explanation of what I mean is http://www.dsiegel.com/film/Film_home.html
about the Nine-Act Structure.

And when I DO have most of my story planned out before my eyes, I realize that there are holes in it. I try to get to the holes, and understand what they are, and why they are still there. How can such a gap still exist between point A and point B? Why did my character suddendly decides to go out of his planed route, just to get to event C, in order to please me? What are the REASONS? What are the CAUSES? I like everything to have a logical reason. And if I have to fall back on paranoia to explain why Detective Jumper decided to break the door opposite of the one he had been warranted, and thus get a suit that will pursue him through the story, partly because the noise helped the bad guy escape in time through the window, then so be it. If I have to resort to pot luck and have young Lucky successfully take down the accountant that had decided to rob the bank, just because it's spring, the accountant is allergic and the bank's boss is so in love with the cashier that he put flowers everywhere in the bank to please her, then so be it, the accountant sneezed exactly when Lucky got up and head banged with him, taking him out. But I'll have to explain it slowly before, in order for everyone to let the information sink in.

And when ALL my bases are covered with the pieces of my puzzles, I usually let the reader find one corner, and unravel the whole plot for himself. I am also very surprised, sometimes, with the logical reasons that can spring when things are SOOO unrelated. "Agatha Christie's Orient-Express crime" is just a marvel in this respect.

On a second thought, I think is only mostly true for those stories that are mysteries. If I write a fantasy story, I prefer to draw a deep background, with names, locations, and maps, even, in order to get a feeling of the world. And when i start to look at the big picture, usually, some ideas of events occur to me. That's when the preceding post comes into play...

Hmm, two striking or amusing facts - what sort of facts?

I've actually looked at that 9-act play site before. I think it's interesting, except it's built on the hero's journey and the climax being some sort of physical confrontation between a hero and a villain, which isn't the sort of story I write.

In fact, any fact you can think of. Off the top of my head, I can say that, if in the commandant of the defense of a citadel's report to superiors appear four guys being arrested drunk outside of a pub by a patrol, one warehouse being visited but nothing stolen, and a man from another patrol being hit by a flower pot falling from a window ledge somewhere else, then there is a plot going on.

Let's say that the citadel is under siege.

And now, as the superior officer in charge, I would order as soon as possible the person living behind that window arrested and questionned, the warehouse emptied of all the food in it, and thoroughly searched, the four drunkards questionned, and the water tank emptied and filled with new distilled water, because the enemy is OBVIOUSLY trying to get the garnison ill.

Why?

Well, if there are TWO patrols that should have crossed at a certain point, let's say around said warehouse, and they did not for so obvious reasons, and that said warehouse has been visited but nothing is gone from it, then something must have been added to it. It is not likely to be something heavy or big, because it would instantly show. It cannot be something that does NOT fit in the picture. And if it can't be spotted, then it must be something that can't be seen easily. Poison. Someone has been poisonning the food. It is likely that they will also have poisonned the water, because when the food is out, everybody gorges on water. It would only speed the process, make everybody ill, and make it easier for an invasion of the citadel. The delays provided by the arrestations and the poor patrol guy being hit by the flower pot are to damn convenient to be ignored as part of the plot. Then, they must be a part of it. All it takes is enough imagination to take it out from them, and know how the attack is going to be conducted. Then you ambush te enemy and get down on him harder than rocks from heaven...

easy plotting, eh?

Well, the hardest part of plotting for me is not getting the story started, but tying everything up with a dramatic climax. How do you think of the climax of a plot?

As a specific example, here's a description of what I'm trying to do with my novel's plot:

Quote: There are 4 viewpoint characters, Merru, Ravennin, Attranath, and Lieann.

The overall or exterior plot which contains all the characters is: A
diverse bunch of misfits come together as a team/family and overcome
society's prejudices and preconceptions. (So society is the antagonist.)

M's logline is: A man secure in his competence but lacking intimacy in
his life has his competence taken away from him (by being dropped
unexpectedly into an alien world and treated like an animal). In the
process of rebuilding his competence he finds the
friendship/love/intimacy/loyalty/family he lacked before. M's key
ability is adaptability/open-mindedness/creative problem solving ability.

R's logline is: A born leader is blocked from the traditional path to
his destiny because society labels him 'flawed', and he internalizes
this belief and consequently mistrusts his instincts. He needs to
regain his self confidence, learn to disregard society, find an
alternative path to becoming a leader, and follow his instincts to
find happiness playing the role he was born for. R's key ability is
the charisma/instinct to create and lead a team/family.

A is the follower to match R's leadership. So A's logline is: A born
follower wants to please society, and society says that an ideal man
should be a leader, so A is trying to be a leader even though this is
not what he is suited for or what will make him happy. He needs to
become self-aware and realize that being the best man he can be means
being the best follower he can be, and that being the best follower
requires giving his loyalty only to a leader who deserves it. A's key
ability is faith/loyalty.

L is a mistreated outcast who has become defensively forceful,
mistrustful, and amoral. He must regain his useful idealism,
realizing that he is loveable and that there are some men (i.e. the
other three characters) who are worthy of his trust and respect. L's
key ability is strategy.

So I know that's what has to go in the novel: the 4 characters'
individual journeys, and their collective journey to defy society and
become a family. And 500 pages is my guess at how long it will take
to tell the whole story. So what I need help with is finding a good
dramatic structure to weave these plots together into. I have some
vague ideas about how to do this - put M and A together for a 'buddy
story' dynamic and R and L into a disfunctional romance for act 1,
then switch the pairs around for act 2 to get R and A together as
leader and follower and M and L together for the powerful combination
of creativity and strategy, then for act 3 bring all 4 of them
together as a team so they can use the combination of their unique
abilities to defeat the external threat/villain, society. I have no
idea whether this is the best structure I could use, or whether it
will support all the story goals I want to accomplish, or how to
develop it into a detailed plot outline - thus, I'm asking for help.

What is R's traditional path to power, and how is it blocked? What is
the alternative path, and how does it suddenly become a viable option
near the end of act 2? Exactly how is society a threat and how do the
characters combine their unique abilities to decisively defeat that
threat at the climax? I wish I knew. :( What is a step-by-step
procedure I can use to answer my questions and further the development
of the plot outline?

Sorry to blow the bubble, but there are some things that seems intrinsically flawed to me in your overall design.

Ok. First, there is NO bakcbone to it. You simply have the characters. I will simply suppose that you used a copy'n paste of your notepad, and forgot the part about where they are supposed to evolve. You seem to get quite fond of your characters. Please avoid the trouble to fall deeply in love with only one of them.

Then, unless there is something I don't get instantly in the society type of R, the character is not a natural born leader, but a natural born mother, or natural born spokesman. His (or her?) course of action is not about strategy or combat whatsoever. It is about making the team work cohesively. If in his world, everything resolves around getting the family together, let him find what kind of quality he lacks to make it happen. If it is about faction combat, then he is NOT the best suited character in the group of four to become the leader of the group. In fact, since, from what i got, the story will be about getting the team out of a cesspit somewhere in an alien landscape, strategy and adaptability will probably be your best bets on who will be listened to in priority. R should probably be the one the others turn to in times of doubts. Maybe R has his path blocked because he canot have children? Works for a female R even better, though. And allows some more leeway in terms of sexual intercourse if others are males.

If A's main quality is faith and loyalty, then it is probable that, once soothed from his personal anguish by R, he will fulfill his destiny in believing so much in the strategy that he will commit a stupid and avoidable sacrifice, only to buy time to the others. If he has become forcefully defensive, like you said, he should even make a more formidable opponent in hand-to-hand combat. And if the four of them have become prisonners of some sort, then it is likely that they won't have many weapons at hand at first. Let them fight with nails and teeth at first, then gather makeshift weapons, and then their guardians' weapons. From that point on, the main character to focus on will be L the strategist, and the main fighter will be A the adaptator.

Sorry, I misread what you wrote. in fact, you want the strategist to be the "forcefully defensive" character? It must then be on the plan of trust in others. He must be a loner. In order to respect a dynamic to the progression of the story, this is what I would do.

First you start off following R the failed mother in whatever you are planning to put them through. I imagine it as a prison similar to that of the movies "Tank Girl" or "Riddick's Chronicles". You should get copies of those if you want to catch what i'll be talking about. R is here, because she is of no use whatsoever to her society, unless she works hard. She could be a daughter from the upper crust thrown out of her golden world because of her sterility problems.

Then she meets one more character, probably A the loyal folower, in deep despair because he is lost, alone, and despite his big muscles, he doesn't have enough confidence in himself to try anything anymore. The odds are that he has been thrown in here because of his main quality that has been abused. It is then likely that a person of influence has asked him to do something that was reprehensible by law. A woman would be better, since it would pose all throughout the story the problem of wether or not he should trust R, and accept what she says. He begins t be attracted by her, but in a lovingly manner, not a submissive one. They tend to settle down in this relation where both are happy with their social role within that small familial cell. It would be better if he was a little childish and had some sort of lucky charm or personal belonging he couldn't leave behind.

Then they meet M or rather inadvertantly fall into an artisanal trap he had set for the guardians. M is particularly worried that his trap worked but not on the right persons. R and A find a new hope in this meeting and tend to stick to him in order to get out and "live happily everafter" once outside. They will put all their energy into creating a new project to get out. (The reason for him to be in there has probably something to do with his particular skill too. He probably tinkered with something he shouldn't have, religion-wise, or has injured someone important's family in one of his experiences...)

For the next few weeks or months, they will try three times to get out, but everything will fail curiously. Each time, a frail smile will be seen somewhere around the failing atempt. The smile is that of L, a young woman, specialist of a strategy game like Shogi or Chess (The reason for her t be in here is also her main strength. She has probably beaten an important character in a public game of Shogi or Chess. Humiliation could not be overcome by means of killing her, so she has been sent to jail instead to die there and help with her work. She is seeking a way out to get revenge from the man she beat.). She has just been preparing them to accept anybody coming and prepared to help them. The deeper they fell in despair, the more pleased she was with her "moves". Then she moves in with the group and she is readily accepted by M, who is pleased to have someone so brilliant around, to help him. R sees her as a potential threat to her matiarcal power. A doesn't really care, he is happy following R.

The next attempt to escape fails unexpectedly because of exterior elements. A crisis in the group ensues, releasing the acumulated tension and bringing it close to split. Only the smoth talking of R makes them accept to work together again.

The last attempt is the riskiest ever they all made. It requires going out by strength, strategy, cunning and sheer luck sometimes. It is a breakout.

Damn!! And I was so sure I was logged in...

Anyway, here comes part II.

Let's say that throughout their past failed attempts, the group of three has been sent further and further down the mine, or underground prison, or cesspit or what have you. The strategist has some leeway because she entertains the boss around here by playing with him. he then allows her not to work and to wander around as she chooses fit to. This is how she found out about the projects of the group of three.

(A nice twist would be to find out in the end that she has been a lesbian thrown down for asking out a favor from the looser of the game, a kiss, and that it was a woman. She was so in love with that woman that she asked the kiss as a reward knowing fully well that it would send her in the pit. She wants to get out, not to get revenge, but another kiss??!! Plus it would help you out with all your sexual tension building up in different forms.

Motherlike R is a sentimentally loner, although she tries to become a matriarch; Dumb and childish A is someone also looking for love. let's say that his lucky charm is some sort of Mister Binky teddy bear, or an image of his real mother, or anything that he just can't leave behind. Then Mechanics M is probably neither a misanthrope or a mysoginist, he simply doesn't care a bit about human beings, and simply love to tinker around. He may be sexually interested in the proximity of Lieann, though. And she would use it to lead him to get her out of it, since she is a lesbian, being deeply in love with the woman who sent her down, but being also sincerely attracted to Motherlike R in times of loneliness, possibly because of physical resemblances. Maybe Motherlike R is also interested in Mechanics M because he is also a geneticist at times, and could help her overcome her sterility once outside?)

So now, they have to go ALL THE WAY up to the surface (think of "Cube", also...) They tend to be complementary, but there are also differences of opinions on what the roles of each ones are, and if they shouldn't leave the motherlike R behind, since she doesn't really bring anything to the team.

Each level of security they go through the tensions get more evident, and so are the sexual approaches. It should also bring more dangers and threats of being sent down to last level: a level that has NO way of coming up, only down. There, rules are different. It should be the ultimate threat that everyone refuses to speak about or even think of. Maybe it should be like the morlocks in Time Machine? Eating human flesh, since there is nothing else?

The upper levels get more difficult and in the ultimate level, right before the exit, childish A realizes that he left Mister Binky behind, and cannot survive if he does not go back to get him. There is the grand finale of the story, where everybody finds his own place.

Childish A decides to sacrifice himself and lure the guards back to where he thinks he forgot Mister binky. He doesn't care behind left back as long as he has mister Binky.

Strategist L persuades mechanics M to follow her out while it is time, and to help her seek revenge ( a second kiss)

Mechanics M accepts to follow Strategist L out of love. he is now truly in love with her and won't let her down no matter what.

Motherlike R is torn between the desire to see a possibility to have children in the future, with the help of mechanics M, and that to help childish A whom she already considers as her own child, although he is two years older than herself.

In the end, Motherlike R looks M and L go out while the door shuts on them, and accepts with a smile to run after her "child", and live hapily everafter in Hell with him.

Intrinsically flawed is a heavy word. It's not flawed. It just don't suit your tatse (and my taste because I'm also a male).

Don't call a different perspective as flawed. Have you read any romance novels? I have. Most of them are written from a woman's perspective. Women like those stuffs, (but I do not like them). You're trying to enforce men's perspective on sunandshadow. Learn to accept her perspective as a valid alternative, she has a different perspective, not flaw.

I was saying it is flawed because the probable psychology of the group does not function. Being a leader demands qualities. These qualities can belong to the combat sphere, if the situation demands it, or it can belong to the familial sphere, for the same reasons. The overall plot of
"A diverse bunch of misfits come together as a team/family and overcome
society's prejudices and preconceptions. (So society is the antagonist.)" is simply too general to trigger any event. I proposed a background situation in which the protagonists would evolve. I gave the first push and let them act as naturally as they would if they were really built this way and really had these motivations.

I was saying it was flawed because being a leader can only happen in two different situations. You are the leader in a war/conflict/opposition, and therefore have to show off the qualities needed to win said opposition situation. In this case, said qualities were the basic qualities of other characters, then the leadership could not be a war leadership. It then had to be a family leadership. I used personal knowledge to create a situation where a character becomes the leader of a family and expanded from there. Family leaders are either matriarchs or patriarchs. I chose to go the Matriarch way because it provided more situations in which SnS could develop her own style of writing. But in order to get a tightening of the bonds, you have to live intense things together. the more intense, the more tight the bonds become. And I had an understanding that those bonds were precisely what she was interested in. So I created a backstory for those characters and bonds to evolve in. There isn't much to it, but it provides sufficient backbone to it to create an interesting dynamic.

And I am not sure I understood perfectly what she had in mind, since her quote lacked precision...

EDIT: Arrgh, logged me out too - this post is by sunandshadow

Wow Fournicolas, how do you come up with so many plot ideas so quickly? Man, if I could learn how to do that, I'd be all set.

I think you and the AP are both right about whether the story idea is intrinsically flawed - "A diverse bunch of misfits come together as a team/family and overcome society's prejudices and preconceptions. (So society is the antagonist.)" is too vague, but making it more specific by making the antagonist a prison which must be defeated by lots of fighting is too masculine of an approach. Since the underlying problem here, I agree, is that my quote lacked precision, let me try to fix that. (For one thing, all 4 characters are male.)

"R is a natural leader" - Ravennin's qualities that make him a leader are his force of will and his strong presence, which can be either intimidating, sexy, or protective and reassuring. The problem is that Ravennin has a hormonal disorder called hyperterritoriality. Basically he has way too much testosterone, and the way this effects his species (dragons) is to make him have a very sensitive nose and be good at athletic things, especially hunting, but he is not very eloquent and has a hard time controlling his responses to other dragons' scents - he can barely stand to be in the same room with another alpha male, and he tends to come on too strong to women and scare them away. Because of this hormonal disorder his father has told him he is flawed and will probably end up murdering someone and getting exiled (dragons don't have prisons, lol). So, having gotten to be about 19 without any encouragement from either the patriarchy or a girlfriend, Ravennin has come to agree that he is flawed and has no faith that he will achieve his dearly-held dream of becoming a clan patriarch (dominion). (This is why Attranath's faith is important to Ravennin later on when they meet - Attranath, as a natural follower with a crush on Ravennin, has a rock-solid faith in Ravennin that helps restore Ravennin's self-confidence.)

Hmm, I'm not sure what else I need to clarify - but I want the initial set-up to have Merru and Lieann (creativity and strategy) to be on opposite sides, initially fighting (not physically) against each other before they decide to team up. Attranath should initially be on Merru's side (they're best friends) and Ravennin should initially be on Lieann's side (Lieann is Ravennin's first lover as a result of some sneaky plotting by Lieann, against Ravennin's better judgement because things could only get worse if his father found out he had a male lover.)

Lieann you nailed! :) Lieann is a beta male, all beta males are gay (not to mention small and weak), so everyone knows Lieann's gay and a lot of people dispise him or fear him for it. I can definitely see him setting people up for failure, then gloating over it afterwards. I can easily see him using a wager or blackmail to get kisses, although he would never sacrifice himself just for a kiss, he plays for bigger stakes than that. This is how Lieann and Merru go from being opponents to being allies - Lieann tries to force Merru into having sex with him, and Merru unexpectedly agrees and, by giving Lieann what he wants, reverses the power dynamic such that Lieann is now dependant on Merru's favor. Lieann is the one who is defensive - when he decides Merru is precious to him, he will move immediately and strongly to 'secure Merru', by trying to set Merru up as a dominion. But, Merru doesn't want to be a dominion - that's where Ravennin comes in.

So, how about that as a set-up: there are at least two factions politically and socially struggling against each other, and M and A start out in one faction (the school we were discussing earlier in the thread? Which Lieann can't attent because he's a beta male and Ravennin's father denied him permission to go to?) while L and R start out out in a different faction. So society is keeping them apart politically and by condemning homosexual relationships, and by individually condemning Lieann for being a beta male, Ravennin for being hyperterritorial, Attranath for being submissive, and Merru for being an alien/animal (Merru is a human, or at least a human brain in a dragon body). So that's our diverse bunch of misfits. Then coming together as a family despite interferance from society and their own internal conflicts should take up 2/3 of the book, then the climax of the book should be them working together as a family to definitively defeat society somehow, making it safe for their family to live happily ever after.

Anything else I should clarify?