On a second thought, I think is only mostly true for those stories that are mysteries. If I write a fantasy story, I prefer to draw a deep background, with names, locations, and maps, even, in order to get a feeling of the world. And when i start to look at the big picture, usually, some ideas of events occur to me. That's when the preceding post comes into play...

Hmm, two striking or amusing facts - what sort of facts?

I've actually looked at that 9-act play site before. I think it's interesting, except it's built on the hero's journey and the climax being some sort of physical confrontation between a hero and a villain, which isn't the sort of story I write.

In fact, any fact you can think of. Off the top of my head, I can say that, if in the commandant of the defense of a citadel's report to superiors appear four guys being arrested drunk outside of a pub by a patrol, one warehouse being visited but nothing stolen, and a man from another patrol being hit by a flower pot falling from a window ledge somewhere else, then there is a plot going on.

Let's say that the citadel is under siege.

And now, as the superior officer in charge, I would order as soon as possible the person living behind that window arrested and questionned, the warehouse emptied of all the food in it, and thoroughly searched, the four drunkards questionned, and the water tank emptied and filled with new distilled water, because the enemy is OBVIOUSLY trying to get the garnison ill.

Why?

Well, if there are TWO patrols that should have crossed at a certain point, let's say around said warehouse, and they did not for so obvious reasons, and that said warehouse has been visited but nothing is gone from it, then something must have been added to it. It is not likely to be something heavy or big, because it would instantly show. It cannot be something that does NOT fit in the picture. And if it can't be spotted, then it must be something that can't be seen easily. Poison. Someone has been poisonning the food. It is likely that they will also have poisonned the water, because when the food is out, everybody gorges on water. It would only speed the process, make everybody ill, and make it easier for an invasion of the citadel. The delays provided by the arrestations and the poor patrol guy being hit by the flower pot are to damn convenient to be ignored as part of the plot. Then, they must be a part of it. All it takes is enough imagination to take it out from them, and know how the attack is going to be conducted. Then you ambush te enemy and get down on him harder than rocks from heaven...

easy plotting, eh?

Well, the hardest part of plotting for me is not getting the story started, but tying everything up with a dramatic climax. How do you think of the climax of a plot?

As a specific example, here's a description of what I'm trying to do with my novel's plot:

Quote:

There are 4 viewpoint characters, Merru, Ravennin, Attranath, and Lieann. The overall or exterior plot which contains all the characters is: A diverse bunch of misfits come together as a team/family and overcome society's prejudices and preconceptions. (So society is the antagonist.) M's logline is: A man secure in his competence but lacking intimacy in his life has his competence taken away from him (by being dropped unexpectedly into an alien world and treated like an animal). In the process of rebuilding his competence he finds the friendship/love/intimacy/loyalty/family he lacked before. M's key ability is adaptability/open-mindedness/creative problem solving ability. R's logline is: A born leader is blocked from the traditional path to his destiny because society labels him 'flawed', and he internalizes this belief and consequently mistrusts his instincts. He needs to regain his self confidence, learn to disregard society, find an alternative path to becoming a leader, and follow his instincts to find happiness playing the role he was born for. R's key ability is the charisma/instinct to create and lead a team/family. A is the follower to match R's leadership. So A's logline is: A born follower wants to please society, and society says that an ideal man should be a leader, so A is trying to be a leader even though this is not what he is suited for or what will make him happy. He needs to become self-aware and realize that being the best man he can be means being the best follower he can be, and that being the best follower requires giving his loyalty only to a leader who deserves it. A's key ability is faith/loyalty. L is a mistreated outcast who has become defensively forceful, mistrustful, and amoral. He must regain his useful idealism, realizing that he is loveable and that there are some men (i.e. the other three characters) who are worthy of his trust and respect. L's key ability is strategy. So I know that's what has to go in the novel: the 4 characters' individual journeys, and their collective journey to defy society and become a family. And 500 pages is my guess at how long it will take to tell the whole story. So what I need help with is finding a good dramatic structure to weave these plots together into. I have some vague ideas about how to do this - put M and A together for a 'buddy story' dynamic and R and L into a disfunctional romance for act 1, then switch the pairs around for act 2 to get R and A together as leader and follower and M and L together for the powerful combination of creativity and strategy, then for act 3 bring all 4 of them together as a team so they can use the combination of their unique abilities to defeat the external threat/villain, society. I have no idea whether this is the best structure I could use, or whether it will support all the story goals I want to accomplish, or how to develop it into a detailed plot outline - thus, I'm asking for help. What is R's traditional path to power, and how is it blocked? What is the alternative path, and how does it suddenly become a viable option near the end of act 2? Exactly how is society a threat and how do the characters combine their unique abilities to decisively defeat that threat at the climax? I wish I knew. :( What is a step-by-step procedure I can use to answer my questions and further the development of the plot outline?

Damn!! And I was so sure I was logged in...

Anyway, here comes part II.

Let's say that throughout their past failed attempts, the group of three has been sent further and further down the mine, or underground prison, or cesspit or what have you. The strategist has some leeway because she entertains the boss around here by playing with him. he then allows her not to work and to wander around as she chooses fit to. This is how she found out about the projects of the group of three.

(A nice twist would be to find out in the end that she has been a lesbian thrown down for asking out a favor from the looser of the game, a kiss, and that it was a woman. She was so in love with that woman that she asked the kiss as a reward knowing fully well that it would send her in the pit. She wants to get out, not to get revenge, but another kiss??!! Plus it would help you out with all your sexual tension building up in different forms.

Motherlike R is a sentimentally loner, although she tries to become a matriarch; Dumb and childish A is someone also looking for love. let's say that his lucky charm is some sort of Mister Binky teddy bear, or an image of his real mother, or anything that he just can't leave behind. Then Mechanics M is probably neither a misanthrope or a mysoginist, he simply doesn't care a bit about human beings, and simply love to tinker around. He may be sexually interested in the proximity of Lieann, though. And she would use it to lead him to get her out of it, since she is a lesbian, being deeply in love with the woman who sent her down, but being also sincerely attracted to Motherlike R in times of loneliness, possibly because of physical resemblances. Maybe Motherlike R is also interested in Mechanics M because he is also a geneticist at times, and could help her overcome her sterility once outside?)

So now, they have to go ALL THE WAY up to the surface (think of "Cube", also...) They tend to be complementary, but there are also differences of opinions on what the roles of each ones are, and if they shouldn't leave the motherlike R behind, since she doesn't really bring anything to the team.

Each level of security they go through the tensions get more evident, and so are the sexual approaches. It should also bring more dangers and threats of being sent down to last level: a level that has NO way of coming up, only down. There, rules are different. It should be the ultimate threat that everyone refuses to speak about or even think of. Maybe it should be like the morlocks in Time Machine? Eating human flesh, since there is nothing else?

The upper levels get more difficult and in the ultimate level, right before the exit, childish A realizes that he left Mister Binky behind, and cannot survive if he does not go back to get him. There is the grand finale of the story, where everybody finds his own place.

Childish A decides to sacrifice himself and lure the guards back to where he thinks he forgot Mister binky. He doesn't care behind left back as long as he has mister Binky.

Strategist L persuades mechanics M to follow her out while it is time, and to help her seek revenge ( a second kiss)

Mechanics M accepts to follow Strategist L out of love. he is now truly in love with her and won't let her down no matter what.

Motherlike R is torn between the desire to see a possibility to have children in the future, with the help of mechanics M, and that to help childish A whom she already considers as her own child, although he is two years older than herself.

In the end, Motherlike R looks M and L go out while the door shuts on them, and accepts with a smile to run after her "child", and live hapily everafter in Hell with him.

I was saying it is flawed because the probable psychology of the group does not function. Being a leader demands qualities. These qualities can belong to the combat sphere, if the situation demands it, or it can belong to the familial sphere, for the same reasons. The overall plot of
"A diverse bunch of misfits come together as a team/family and overcome
society's prejudices and preconceptions. (So society is the antagonist.)" is simply too general to trigger any event. I proposed a background situation in which the protagonists would evolve. I gave the first push and let them act as naturally as they would if they were really built this way and really had these motivations.

I was saying it was flawed because being a leader can only happen in two different situations. You are the leader in a war/conflict/opposition, and therefore have to show off the qualities needed to win said opposition situation. In this case, said qualities were the basic qualities of other characters, then the leadership could not be a war leadership. It then had to be a family leadership. I used personal knowledge to create a situation where a character becomes the leader of a family and expanded from there. Family leaders are either matriarchs or patriarchs. I chose to go the Matriarch way because it provided more situations in which SnS could develop her own style of writing. But in order to get a tightening of the bonds, you have to live intense things together. the more intense, the more tight the bonds become. And I had an understanding that those bonds were precisely what she was interested in. So I created a backstory for those characters and bonds to evolve in. There isn't much to it, but it provides sufficient backbone to it to create an interesting dynamic.

And I am not sure I understood perfectly what she had in mind, since her quote lacked precision...

"Anything else I should clarify?"

Hell yes!! tons of things! You are talking of two opposite political factions. Then what are their politics, what aims, what means? Why are they opposite? In what are they opposite? bear in mind that, theoretically at least, Republicans and democrats are standing and fighting for the same things, only named differently, right?

And something is still curious in your idea, but I can't quite place it...

All of them four are male, right? And you are imagining a patriarchal society, still right? Then, in a patriarchal society, you get the alpha male, and the beta female, who are both leaders, and then you get the other females who will receive the semen of the alpha male, and expand the gene pool while narrowing on the alpha's, and the other males, who will play the role of followers, but only because they can't beat the alpha and take his place. If this happens, then they become the alpha and the new contenders are fought off. A patriarchal society is ALL about fighting. yes, this is what is giving me trouble: you are trying to establish a patriarchal society freed of struggle, which seems absolutely impossible to imagine. A matriarchal society is about spawning and swarming, like the bees. A patriarchal society is about killing any potential contender, and having as much power as possible, like the wolves.

And there is still something strange. you want them to be in a schol as background settings. So what is taught in this school? And what are the reasons for those misfits to happen to happen to be in this school? Misfits aren't usually found in elite schools unless they are elite misfits. And a beta male isn't likely to be elite. something is going wrong here.

And just to make it plain, I don't think you'll find a way to create a dynamic which will allow to contenders to work hand in hand without having them have a row or a fight of their own form. Contenders are fighters in their more evident aspect. You can't be in opposite factions without being somehow forced to fight. In any way you choose. You'll find yourself forced to come to this masculine approach you so don't like, despite your efforts. Unless you find a way of blurring the differences between the factions, and making it less political.

sorry.

As for the way of finding and creating plots, I don't know. maybe it comes from the way I think. Everything happens for a reason. If you can't find any valid reason for a thing to happen other than "it would be convenient for my novel", then expand your scope a bit, and add elements that will help you make the logical steps to your conclusion. Remember that each step is a conclusion in itself, and that some characters may have plans for events that the reader is not aware of. Everything is not as it seems. And I have a strong preferences for stories where everything is in fact very different from what it seems at first sight. Everything should have double meaning.

I told you that I was going from facts to the story. that is true, but facts only happen once you have a very definite background for them. Facts can be elements of the personal history of each characters, if you have characters. And I would recommend not trying to weave a story around personal relations too much. I find it too difficult. What I find easy is to try to understand how your characters are working, and set them in motion in your world. If they want to have relations, let them do so. But don't try to force relations upon characters that won't fit together, even for the purpose of your story. Try to understand them deeply, feel like them, and understand what in their personal history sets them in motion, and what part of their world they fit in. What is going in a way that does not help the characters? what is helping him evolve in a way that pleases him? from that deep understanding, you can deduce some numerous steps for your story. At least, this is my belief, and probably the way I function to find stories. I don't plot, as a whole. I simply give a background and potential characters. And against that background, my characters find their natural place. i don't know how. most of the time, they do things that surprise me. They are their own masters. They have a life of their own, not one I have imposed over them.

[Edited by - Fournicolas on May 3, 2005 2:40:22 PM]

Oh, duh, I forgot the political factions. I don't want the two factions to be in conflict because they're different, I want them to be in conflict because they're the same, maybe two noble families vying for control of the whole region or ownership of the school or the hand of the princess... anything like that will do, it should be something that isn't too important because it's not the focus of the story at all, just the social background dynamic. Like in Romeo and Juliet - "Two households, both alike in dignity, in fair Verona where we lay our scene, from ancient grudge break to new mutiny, where civil blood makes civil hands unclean. (where sneaky plots and blackmail stir up trouble.) From forth the fatal loins of these two foes (two) pair(s) of starcross'd lovers take their life..." Only in this version love defeats prejudice and the lovers get to live happily ever after rather than committing suicide. ^_^

Hmm, there's an idea - maybe whetever the two factions are fighting over, the new clan formed by the 4 main characters could grab it out from under both their noses - that would be a pretty good way to show them defeating society and gaining racognition as being a 'real' clan. :)

So, yeah, we've got characters M and A starting out allied with faction X, characters L and R starting out allied with faction Y, they meet each other, figure out both factions are the bad guys, defect to form new faction Z, and defeat factions X and Y by using adaptability, strategy, charisma, and faith to snatch for themselves whatever X and Y were using them to pursue. That's a plot, right? Sounds like a plot to me...

[Edited by - sunandshadow on May 3, 2005 4:03:04 PM]

Well, yes. It's probably a plot, but definitely NOT a story. And to Hell if I know what to make out of it.

Oh, well, I guess I'll just have to give it a try anyway...

Both "groups" or "factions" are vying (not actually fighting, this is important) over something. It happens in a school, which, from what has been stated earlier has barracks, which define the groups. Maybe they are all trying to get the best marks, because it means something special? Maybe having the best marks allows the leader of the group or barracks to create his own clan? But what ahppens to those that do NOT have the best marks? do they simply have to get into an already existing clan if they can? If they are indeed vying over the best marks, there will be no physical violence, only verbal intimidation, and I think this would suit your taste better. Only I HAVE to tell that I find it a bit of a dull reason to fight. It lacks something to flesh it out. Too early to tell yet. Let's go further.

Oh yes. Now I remember what has been nagging me for so long.

"The beta Male is gay. He has to, because all Beta males are gay."

Is this some sort of circular thought or something that eludes me? Does he have to be gay because he is a beta male, and beta males do not get the females, so have to resort to something else to enjoy their sexuality, or does he have to be a beta male in order to enjoy his homosexuality? I think it would be more likely in this form, but you're free to object, this is your story, after all. Maybe he was built as an alpha male, but has different feelings about sexuality preventing him to spawn, and that downranks automatically as a beta. But I really don't know why all betas are gays.

[edit] Okay, I just read once more through the thread and realized that I had asnwered your post too early. I have skipped your first post, as anonymous poster. Okay. It sounds a bit curious to have a part of the population transform itself and nobody find it outrageous, but as you choose. I would have made it one of the most obvious reason of racism. It changes everything to the core of society, therefore should be highly despised by anyone attached to tradition.

And your definition of clan or multicellular family is still giving me trouble. I can't think of any bio-logical reason to end evolution in this kind of family including "3 to 8 adults and their kids"... It usually requires much more people to make a living on any kind of food, unless you are strictly carnivorous, and then, the unit is, well, THE unit. It amounts to one, and nothing more, usually. think of the tigers. Or you can have the model of the wolves and the lions, where you find One top leader, which is either very active or very passive, and the hunters around him or her, which bring back the food, plus the kids, but no pretender ever. pretenders and contenders are either banned from the group, or submissive, or killed when they try to take the power by brute strenght. If they kil the former leader, then everything remains the same, but with a new leader instead. this kind of family is ethno-logically not viable. So please reconsider this kind of formation into something more logically acceptable. Or try to define the laws which have sprung those units into natural evolution.

[End edit]

OK. So you want two groups, and want your winning group to be composed of both sides. So maybe there is a social component to the thing? Maybe there is the rich sods on the one side, and the poor sods on the other side, and both are vying over the best marks because that means creating a clan, but mainly for pride, because money can still buy everything in this world as in any other. So pride should be a mjor component of your settings. Maybe a little in the Classic japanese sense.

Okay, so now, we have the richs angainst the poors vying FOR PRIDE AND HONOUR to get the best marks in school because that means they can get the right to create a clan with the rest of their barracks. This sounds more like the setting of a story.

OKay.

Now where do your characters come from, and why?

Obviously, Tinkerer M needs a LOT of money to enjoy his little expereriments. And if A is to side with him in the beginning, then A is one the "rich sods" too. I maintain my assumption that he is just a little childish, and is probably bullied for that, even if he is one head taller than everybody, and could probably squeeze them in his arms until their eyes gouge out. Brutish, tall, brawny, but too good natured and childish to become a leader of his own. He tends to stick to M because M is not as haughty as most of the other in their original barracks. he is quite happy to have someone ask him politely to use his strength at times, and help him out with the most difficult subjects as arithmetics or anything else taught there.

Then, it stands to reason that both L and R are on the "poor sods" side. Both have great aspirations for themselves, and would like to be leaders of their own clan. L, on the other side knows that being second in command allows for more leeway, and is probably the best balance between power and responsibility. He only lusts for power and a possibility to display his skills. R is another ball of wax entirely. He is the son of someone who is not rich, but he has had access to someone to teach him out to use his best traits that are smooth talking and nice appearance, and charisma, to best almost anybody in his range. He probably have played as a child with the leader of the rich team, who doesn't respect him because of his social status. He should learn better this time. (Maybe he is the son of the private teacher of the rich sods leader?) R should also be a socialy beta male. Not a naturally born leader. he should lack at least one of the prerequisite to become a social alpha, and work hard to compensate this flaw by his fortes, that are talking and charisma. This way, it explains why he is thrown out of his "poor sods" team, and theoretically denied the possibility to create a clan, without the backup of a number of comrades. L will follow him out of the barracks because he thinks HE has a chance of rallying some more people to his cause through talking and negociations.

Stop. I see a problem here. If the group is of four persons, and it requires them to have overall higher marks than the other groups, it means, to make it even, that other groups are about equal, and that makes three groups of four persons, that is twelve pupils. I find it pretty small for a school. Unless R and L move triggers something that has never been seen before, and spawns a great number fo new groups, creating a new dynamic. But there is another problem. In a society that accepts only ONE alpha male through school, first, where stand the females in this school? do they even enter the ground? And second, what happen to the loosers? The penalty should not be too much of a problem, in order to prevent loss of force. Once again, that is unless the females greatly outnumber the males, but in this setting, I can't imagine why they would renounce the power. Bogus.

In the end, it will probably be a showdown between the "Rich Sods" and the "four upcoming brats" because they will have the exact same amount of points, and therefore require a final test. There will be a sort of "weakest link" contest, but in a "chicken" form, or final shootout in soccer, or what have you. You have to pair two students and have them answer in turn to questions on set subjects. It will be probable that there will be a hierarchy in both teams on marks terms, and that it will utlimately be down to strategy.

It will be like this story of two emirs vying to know who got the bas hara of horses. They made races where the best of each hara fought each other, then hte second best, then the third best, then the fourth and fifth, and never could they be parted. Then a grand vizir came to the ear of his master, and said, let me arrange that, and you will win. So he paired the best horse of his opponent with the worse of his master. But he paired the second best of the opponent with his master's best, and the third best with the second best, and the fourth best with the third best, and thus won 4 to 1 for his master. Sometimes you've got to loose something, if you want to get it all.

But now, it's all up to you to know who you choose to sacrifice in this shootout and why. Is it going to be the captain? Is it going to be the weakest minded of all, A, who is more at ease in Physical prowess?

[Edited by - Fournicolas on May 4, 2005 5:54:15 AM]

OKay. This is my third post in this thread in only one day. I probably should get a life. Get some fresh air...

Anyway. I'm probably too "old fashioned", but I can't imagine guys having sex and then HAVING BABIES. This is just beyond the scope of my possibilities. Usually, it requires both genders to create life. Even if there is a third gender around somewhere.

And I just suddendly realized some other thing. You are asking for a military school that provide people with classy education in a world that does not know war? Then where does this military school education comes from? What does it teach? If it is a military school, then it is very unlikely that there won't be any physical violence. If it is not, then we need to define what kind of thing is taught there, and what kind of persons come out.

Plus I remembered that you wanted to make it so that there are 4 years of approximately 50 people each in this school. So where does this settle? Are the four main characters in first, third or last year?

First year, they will be ignorant of the rules of this microcosm, just like the reader, but will get beaten down by the fourth years top dogs. If they are fourth years, then they should know everything of the background worldbuilding by now. unless they integrate the school directly in fourth year for some reason. Third year is probably the best of all worlds, because it allows some more leeway. They still have things to learn, but they might be able to put up a decent fight against any fourth year.

Things are beginning to become extremely difficult here, because you are trying to squeeze everything and its opposite in a story, in order to display some characters you have thought about. I am not criticizing the way you construct your stories, but I have to admit that I don't work so well in this context. I am doing my best to invent something that can rationalize everything, and find it Hellish.

Things would be much more simple if the story could involve, for some reason, family units which wouldn't be so curious. If it was simply a matter of making things happen in order to make Ravennin the leader of a new clan, which would include many families, and make him the equivalent of a sage, then it would be cake. If it was about revolutionizing the society in its entirety, it would probably be easier, since it would involve some fight at some point.

But creating a plot which has definite characters I don't understand perfectly, the imposed figure of banning all physical violence, HALF a definite background and a definite ending I don't understand at all, I find it difficult.

For a start, I don't understand how can anything happen if there is no opposition at stake. The group has to be pitched against something, and both faction X and Y should be pitched against the same thing PLUS each other. And I can't magine what it is they are fighting for. I told you pride and honor would potentially work, but I am not sure they would be functional, in fact. Because, if anyone wins, it means everybody else fails, and in a society which promotes Pride and honor, loss equals to death, and you'll have to crite about it, which you don't. You seem to want a situation which triggers enough adrenalyne in the characters (and subsequently in the reader) to make it worth betraying your original faction, while having no dramatic consequences. You want an opposition with no fight. You want a military school in a world that does not care about militaries...