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Magic and technology

Started by October 29, 2004 04:37 PM
30 comments, last by solinear 20 years, 3 months ago
As I recall, the Shadowrun RPG world was set in 2050 and used both magic and technology. Cool stuff, but I don't remember many details since it has been about 8 years since I last played.
You (ajain) somehow got stuck on the thought 'if it isn't effective for society as a whole, then it won't happen'.

Well crime isn't either.

Secondly there have always been explorers. Curiosity rather than convenience would bring one to discover technology, even if it can be done easily with magic.

One good plot device a writer used was making magic easily counteractable by magic. An incident took place:

An army came through a town, wounded, battle weary and torn clothes / armor. The town offered them a completely new wardrobe/ armor. The general was astounded at the large quantities of goods and manpower the town had. When somebody told him 'no they'll just make one piece and then magically duplicate it into thousands' he got incredibly pissed. Magic is easy to undo magically and in battle there would always be countermagicians present. This would result in the entire army being in their underwear at the commence of battle.

If magic isn't lasting, technology is a good alternative.
Magic can be purely inborn.

Not every powerful human is either scorned or worshipped. If they don't go out of their way to be a nuisance or a blessing, they would be little else than a poet or a carpenter.

To meet your specific questions:
"why would the world even develop cars in the first place?"
Because cars move faster than levitation? Because levitation spells are much more exhausting and man prefers the easy, comfortable way?
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Mage: Ascension is a roleplaying game set in our world, today. It mixes together technology and magic pretty well I believe. In the game, technology is only one aspect of magic, which is "camouflaged" as science in order to appear coherent and consensual to the unawakened (non-mages).
It depends on what exactly you mean by "technology and magic".

If you want them to be blended, go for technomancy. A wand that shoots a stream of flame is no different than a mechanical pole that sprays a jet of pure oxygen and then lights it up.

If you want magic and technology to be completely separate entities, that's a different matter.

-First, magic in a lot of games either requires mana or makes you tired. In that case, magic would be short term effects, tech long term.

-The mana/exhaustion trick also works for levitation-car problems. Sure, levitation lets you move in any way you please, but you will get tired.
Quote:
Original post by Ajain
I am very confused on how someone could justify using technology and magic in a game...please explain...


its quite simple to justify it when you think rationaly about the subject. Ready? ITS A GAME!!! If games were all based soly on reality they would be borring as hell and there would be no more new ideas for games! Stop trying to rationalize someones fantasy. Theres no sense in debating something like this. Whos to say that in the game i make (hence MY fantasy world) the sky isnt pink with purple polka-dots, and horses are in fact giant cats? "Oh but evolution made horses not giant cats, and they sky is blue for all of these scientific reasons...blah blah blah" Well my reply to that would be "Not in my fantasy world"

Your missing the whold point of a game. A game is to escape reality, to experiance something you normaly could do. Even the reality style games, What 12 year old can become mayor of a city? (Sim City) Your trying to think entierly to rationaly about the concept behind a pretend world.


Alima
Think about the emergence of gunpowder weapons. The first arquebuses were teh suxx0r. A longbow had better range, far better accuracy, ten times the rate of fire, a good archer could often make his own ammunition (not as good as the arrows of a professional fletcher, sure, but they would work) and the penetration power against armour was approximately equivalent. Why use an arquebus, then? Because you could take any peasant ten minutes off the farm and teach him to use one, while you had to train people almost from birth to make good longbowmen. Also, they made a loud noise! Don't laugh, in a world where the loudest noise people would usually hear would be church bells, a good bang like that is damned frightening. And most battles are won by one side running away, rather than sheer killing power.

Of course, there's also the effect against castles to consider; there was no pre-gunpowder equivalent to a siege cannon. (And no, trebuchets are not equivalent; they can't hit the same spot twice in a row, and can't hit a wall from the side and at the bottom, where it is weakest). So gunpowder got in over the manifestly superior archery by being easier to use, and having some extra effects that archery couldn't supply.

Somebody's law states that "The first examples of superior principle are inferior to the final examples of inferior principle." They usually get adopted anyway, for a variety of reasons. Maybe the inventor is a stubborn git who keeps improving his product until he can convince the people who laughed at him. Maybe his village likes him a lot and adopts his invention anyway. Maybe the previous technology isn't easily accessible - iron versus bronze, for example. (It is not actually that obvious that the first pig iron swords were superior to the best bronze stuff. But they were cheap.) Maybe there's a cultural impetus towards having the newest and best - Edison's lightbulbs versus gaslights. Humans are weird! They adopt technologies for all sorts of reasons, rational consideration being only one of them.
To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.
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Quote:
Original post by Ajain
I'm tired of games like this so I'm writing a little mini-thread to either bring me to the other side so I won't lose sleep on how badly I think this fits or to put rest to it...

Things to think about when creating/reviewing a game with both technology and magic


How would magic and technology fit into a fantasy world at once?

There is no reason for both. If there were a way to levitate around town then why have carts? If there were a way to build buildings and use a lifting spell for other tasks then why develop the wheel or pully? It is human nature to strive for the best way to do something and make all other ways obsolete.

If you are going for a world where magic does become obselete and becomes used again then why de-volve the level of whatever technology was replaced by magic in? In other words: if you already have cars that are superior to magic then why bother re-learning magic?

If you are going to have a world where there would be technology that could replace magic to a certain level but not with all the bells and whistels then it still won't make sense. For example: cars move forward and back and levitation moves forward, back, up, down, left, and right...but if that is the case why would the world even develop cars in the first place?

I am very confused on how someone could justify using technology and magic in a game...please explain...

-Ajain


-Cultural reasons. Magic could be outlawed, and then obviously practiced elsewhere, or by outlaws.

- Magic and technology could have different uses. You might be able to toss fireballs with magic, but maybe only technology can take people to the moon?

- Magic might be more powerful, but require a talent not everyone has.

- Ease of use? Tecnology is usually damn easy to use. Magic might not be. On the other hand, magic tends to require less preparation. (With technology you have to build a car if you're going to travel far. With magic, a simple spell cast on the spot might suffice)

Look at how many different (and all technological) modes of transportation we have. Cars, bicycles, motorbikes, planes, helicopters, boats, submarines and so on.
Has one of those become obsolete just because alternatives exist?
What if they're very similar in power but have different uses? You would need the ability to use magic or access to technology.
Have you ever played the game Arcanum? :) I love how they created a conflict for magick and technology :)
I think technology comes from necessity. In a story I'm working on, humans mostly rely on technology because they don't have the ability or patience to do magic like others can. Other races don't need technology because of their magical inclination.

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