I'm tired of games like this so I'm writing a little mini-thread to either bring me to the other side so I won't lose sleep on how badly I think this fits or to put rest to it... Things to think about when creating/reviewing a game with both technology and magicHow would magic and technology fit into a fantasy world at once? There is no reason for both. If there were a way to levitate around town then why have carts? If there were a way to build buildings and use a lifting spell for other tasks then why develop the wheel or pully? It is human nature to strive for the best way to do something and make all other ways obsolete. If you are going for a world where magic does become obselete and becomes used again then why de-volve the level of whatever technology was replaced by magic in? In other words: if you already have cars that are superior to magic then why bother re-learning magic? If you are going to have a world where there would be technology that could replace magic to a certain level but not with all the bells and whistels then it still won't make sense. For example: cars move forward and back and levitation moves forward, back, up, down, left, and right...but if that is the case why would the world even develop cars in the first place? I am very confused on how someone could justify using technology and magic in a game...please explain... -Ajain

Diversity, and uniqueness of characters.

There could be many reasons to have both magic and technology:
- not the entire population has access to magic, only special wizards can use magic
- magic is easier in some cases, harder in others
- magic is faster, but requires more energy, for example you could have teleporting magic, but using a car would be less tiresome
- using magic requires technology, think alchemy
- magic is (re)discovered after a lot of technology has been invented

The longest journey solved it by having two different worlds, one magical world and one high-tech world.

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Original post by twanvl There could be many reasons to have both magic and technology: 1 - not the entire population has access to magic, only special wizards can use magic 2 - magic is easier in some cases, harder in others 3 - magic is faster, but requires more energy, for example you could have teleporting magic, but using a car would be less tiresome 4 - using magic requires technology, think alchemy 5 - magic is (re)discovered after a lot of technology has been invented

(I numbered them for referance)

1-then it would either be:
A-praised and the people would be elite which would, undoubtably become corrupt and either -1- be stamped out in a revolution, -2- go underground and be stamped out from the public eye, or -3- be atempted to be stamped out in an uncessful revolution which would lead to it becomming common because of the race...
B-be hated and thus the same things would happen

2-to the extent of my knowledge you don't get up someday and say "I'm going to create a better way to move than riding a hoarse! You deal with it and if someone makes a new technology it takes years and years to refine and make actually worth it...if the movement is already there then why develop a new way? Why not just deal with the fact that some spells are easier and some are harder?

3-See previous answer...

4-Makes sense but alchamy is a "science" usually...like cooking except for other things...unless the magic is passive like a potion it wouldn't work...

5-Why would technology be made in the first way?

-Ajain

Why have pencils and pens? Why have wooden pencils and mechanical pencils? Why books and PDAs/Laptops? Why Solitaire.exe and decks of cards? Why hammers and nail guns? Why candles and light bulbs? Why concerts and CD's? Why spray paint and paint brushes? Different tools for different purposes. You know, guitarists use tube amps for some of the same reasons that solid state amps are used for most other purposes.

Or another argument. In Gargoyles and many other fantasy settings technology had gotten to the point where it could rival magic. They were "equal" in a sense, so why not use whichever felt more appropriate at the time? Or in Asimov's Foundation series (SPOILERS), the First Foundation's "physics" rivaled the Second Foundation's "mentalics" (it's been a while, is that what it was called?).

Or another argument. What if they're the same, just different ways to approach it? Alchemy and chemistry could be considered very similar, just having different mind sets.

One thing that'd really help answer the question is, what are the rules for magic in this "universe"? Who can use it? How much training is required? How do you "power" it? What sorts of things can it do?

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Original post by Ajain Quote: Original post by twanvl There could be many reasons to have both magic and technology: 1 - not the entire population has access to magic, only special wizards can use magic 2 - magic is easier in some cases, harder in others 3 - magic is faster, but requires more energy, for example you could have teleporting magic, but using a car would be less tiresome 4 - using magic requires technology, think alchemy 5 - magic is (re)discovered after a lot of technology has been invented (I numbered them for referance) 1-then it would either be: A-praised and the people would be elite which would, undoubtably become corrupt and either -1- be stamped out in a revolution, -2- go underground and be stamped out from the public eye, or -3- be atempted to be stamped out in an uncessful revolution which would lead to it becomming common because of the race... B-be hated and thus the same things would happen 2-to the extent of my knowledge you don't get up someday and say "I'm going to create a better way to move than riding a hoarse! You deal with it and if someone makes a new technology it takes years and years to refine and make actually worth it...if the movement is already there then why develop a new way? Why not just deal with the fact that some spells are easier and some are harder? 3-See previous answer... 4-Makes sense but alchamy is a "science" usually...like cooking except for other things...unless the magic is passive like a potion it wouldn't work... 5-Why would technology be made in the first way? -Ajain

1: Wow, you mean that you could actually make a STORY about a war between the elitist mages and the oppressed technologicals? OH YOUR GOD!

2: Incorrect. YOU don't get up some day and say "I'm going to invent a better way to get information!" People do, and that's why we have what we have. You think computers were invented accidentally?

3: I type faster than I write by hand. Handwriting hurts a bit after a while, but it adds a more personal touch. I still use a little bit of both. I also don't have access to a computer at all times, so that doesn't make handwriting obsolete.

4: You're just grasping at straws for an argument against this one. Maybe the rifle needs some kind of magic to supercharge itself to unleash that uber-awesome blast. I don't know, that's where GOOD writers kill the scientifically minded and steal their ideas.

5: You should play Final Fantasy 6. Maybe magic was very, very strong, so strong that it destroyed everyone who used it. Maybe those very strong people didn't realize it was killing them--until they died. And then the people, who'd relied so long on magic to support them, need to create their own magic without the...uh, after-effect.

Seriously, man. This is ridiculous. You keep repeating the "why do it in the first place?" thing, but everything has a cost. Maybe all this technology we have right now will rebel against us and eat our freaking brains. Maybe all this freaking brain eating will FORCE us to develop a better way to do things. I mean, after all, we need to kill the robots, don't we?

Think of the robo-kittens.

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Original post by Ajain Quote: Original post by twanvl There could be many reasons to have both magic and technology: 1 - not the entire population has access to magic, only special wizards can use magic 2 - magic is easier in some cases, harder in others 3 - magic is faster, but requires more energy, for example you could have teleporting magic, but using a car would be less tiresome 4 - using magic requires technology, think alchemy 5 - magic is (re)discovered after a lot of technology has been invented (I numbered them for referance) 1-then it would either be: A-praised and the people would be elite which would, undoubtably become corrupt and either -1- be stamped out in a revolution, -2- go underground and be stamped out from the public eye, or -3- be atempted to be stamped out in an uncessful revolution which would lead to it becomming common because of the race... B-be hated and thus the same things would happen

or
C-they are treated with praise/hate/indifference depending on the temperament of the individual/society. They are recognized as superior at what they do, but for the most part everyone just gets on with their lives.

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2-to the extent of my knowledge you don't get up someday and say "I'm going to create a better way to move than riding a hoarse!

Actually, many inventions were created in precisely that way.

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You deal with it and if someone makes a new technology it takes years and years to refine and make actually worth it...if the movement is already there then why develop a new way?

Because I think there's a better way. I'm tired of dealing with that stubborn ass. Or I'd rather be able to urinate in my own house without the wife yelling at me instead of making a trek to the out house. Or I'd rather flick a switch than a match.

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Why not just deal with the fact that some spells are easier and some are harder?

Most people do, they have better things to do than invent a better mouse trap. But for some people, that "better thing to do" is to invent the better mouse trap. I'm sure quite a few people would point out that magic isn't real, so the author can make up whatever rules they want for it, so this whole discussion is rather pointless. Why not just deal with the fact that it's a non-entity and any problem you have with it can be explained by "it's magic".

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4-Makes sense but alchamy is a "science" usually...like cooking except for other things...unless the magic is passive like a potion it wouldn't work...

Most fantasy settings have some "science" to the magic. You don't just simply will that something happens.

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5-Why would technology be made in the first way?

Um... same way it was made in the real world? Somebody either said "I wonder how this works" or "I wish there were something that could do this" or "Wouldn't it be fun to do this like that instead?".

Consider the fact that at one time, the technology we take for granted would've been considered magic. What's really the difference between technology and magic, other than magic is generally the mind controlling energy whereas technology is objects controlling energy? What's the difference between a golem and a robot, functionally?

By your argument, the world would only have one language. So I can do something one way...maybe I feel like doing it another way instead.

Not all people follow the easiest road. Why do you think people climb Mt. Everest? Humans are, among other things, achievers. Everyone wants something to call their own, be it a high-paying job or a fast car or a weird invention no one understands. Providing the people in this imaginary magic+technology world are humans, why would they be any different?

One of the things that REALLY bugs me in world building is when someone draws up very deterministic rules from a series of accidental and haphazard historical events. If you find yourself saying, "humans don't..." or "human's would never" on something as flexible as magic and technology I beg you to rethink history (and find and watch a television show called Connections by James Burke. He's one of many scholars who believes that the shape of technology-- why we have one thing and not another-- is due to serendipity and a web of interconnecting cultural and political factors.


Ajain, you may not be doing this, but so many who've followed this track fall into the trap of thinking that just because history unfolded the way it did that's the only way it could have unfolded. I think of it as the Progress Myth which believes that humans are like computers: optimal, linear and progress-focused.

Were it not for changes in book-keeping and accounting that spurred businesses, which in turn spurred shared risk in investments, which in turn helped to kick off the Industrial revolution, technology would likely not look anything like it does today. We can see all around the world inventions that aren't being used because of various factors--social, economic, cultural, political; we can also see old cultures still using ancient means to live out life even as marvels like jets fly over their heads.

Finally, worldbuilding should never be constrained by arbitrary rules that don't exist. Humans have lived in myriad different political and cultural systems, some much less efficient than others; they've lived under thousands of different ideologies that told them to do certain things; and they've had millions of different reasons for living their life the way they do.

If you WANT tech and magic to coexist, as a worldbuilder your job is simply to come up with the interesting factors that make it so. But there's nothing fundamentally impossible about it based on history.