Quote: Original post by Estok

Quote: Original post by sunandshadow

Quote: Original post by Estok
what animal traits does Skew have?

Only the fact that he has back and white patches including the odd-colored eyes. I figured that was odd-looking enough without adding anything else. Also, for the human PC to be mistakeable as a magical, the magicals can't all have an obvious animal trait. But I'm open to other suggestions.

What kinds of traits are obvious and what kinds are not?

IMO tails, ears, and wings, and feathers instead of hair are the most obvious. Fangs, cat-pupilled eyes, clawed hands, fur-type hair, and skin colors and textures like stripes, leopard spots, dapples, scales, buckskin, and patches are a bit more subtle.

Quote: Original post by sunandshadow
Sounds like earning martial arts belts or something.

how so?

Quote: I also think tendrils are better than tails becuse tails are too natural, while tendrils are more spiritual, and should hopefully make the viewer think of ley lines and auras and other such visualizations of spiritual energy.

The fox tail is for beginners. It is a superficial understanding (decoy) of what the tails in "Thirteen Tails" refer to. The player is supposed to falsely associate Fox Eye's tail to be what "the tail" is. The clue is in the name Fox Eye, and the gem that she is holding. The gem is called Fox Eye and the eye refers to the Eye of Deception. 'The tail' does not refer to the physical fox tail but the trail of deceptive events casted by her. Her topic on spirituality pertains to the notion of truth. Deception and truth are appropriate topics regarding spirituality.

Quote: Well, your description made me think of pokemon and monster rancher and azure dreams, etc,

It is not pokemon style. For magicals, there was the idea that the animal traits come from morphing with an actual animal. The pet is such animal. For technos, there was the idea of implants that can morph. The pet is such implant. Some pets are more integrated and some pets are more modular. You can think of them as part of your avatar or evolvable weapons.

Quote: I disagree with the idea that spirituality cannot be sought intentionally - in the taoist tradition spirituality can ONLY be sought intentionally, by fasting, meditation, and studying philosophy. You were the one who said you didn't want to do anything with destiny - would't being a tail be like being destined to become a spiritual?

My view on what spirituality is is different. All I can say is that I acknowledge that you disagree with me. The 'not seeking to be spiritual' part is parallel to the situations when heros did not try to be a hero and they were not seen as heros. What does destiny have to do with becoming spiritual?

Quote: Anyway, I don't like the idea that they should all become spirituals at all. As I said, becoming a spiritual is not right for some personalities, and I definitely don't want the player to get the idea that becoming a spiritual is THE good ending - in many ways choosing to remain mortal and live life fully is a better choice, and certainly more appropriate to some of the characters.

Again, my notion of spiritaulity is different from yours. Becoming spirituals are good endings and are necessary for good endings. A person cannot live life fully without questioning and understanding themselves. Spirituality refers to this understanding. Regarding mortality, I also have a different view. I have stated before this view before, that my version of mortality refers to the spirit, not the physical form, nor the notion of the self. The spirit is an abstract form of existence. When a character turns spiritual, it does not get transformed into a different creature or anything of the like. We can choose to use visual techniques to depict and metaphorize that transformation, but it is not where the meaning lies. The type of techniques I am refering to is the same as those you would use if I ask you to draw essence of love on a piece of paper.

Quote: Plus, the game would be so boring to play if the charaters' stories all ended up the same, don't you think? It defeats the whole purpose of the player needing to study each character to fix their unique problems in creative, individual ways. Skew, for example, is essentially passionate - it would destroy his idenity to transform him into a non-pasionate spiritual. What he lacks in the backstory is love, family, and respect from his community, so that's what he needs to get for his good ending.

This comment does not apply because the view on what spirituals are is different. When you proposed Skew's subplot, I asked you what makes Skew admirable. I asked you whether Skew is wise, and whether he got any insight from his situation. In your reply, you said that he has gained no insight and that it is acceptable because he is a villain. The 13-tails version of Skew will require him to gain such insight for the subplot in which he reaches spirituality.

Quote: As for all the RNPCs being outcasts, don't you recall the other team members saying just a little while ago that some of the characters needed to be normal? And I agree with them it is ineffective to show Follow being unhappy with techno society unless we also show Bunny being happy with the same society.

I said that it is okay that not all 13-tails are outcasts. I also said that it is okay that the 13-tails are not all the RNPCs. Being outcast or not, the 13-tails each has a knot that can drive them toward spirituality.

Well, if we disagree then we'll have to see what the other staff members think about it.

Perhaps it is time to un-table the discussion of spirituals? We need to get the worldbuilding for this game finalized and into the design document so we can concentrate on the characters and story, and hopefully start making the actual script for the game.

You know, Estok, you'll always win these discussions of random other games - because you have more information and we're just left guessing and interpreting. Not suprisingly, we're often wrong, which you don't hesitate to point out in such a friendly way.

In that light, I'll just not comment on the Fox's Eye game.

I agree with sunandshadow that I would like the advancement of things (any things) to be less obvious, and less like earning belts (though there's a time for that, it isn't in our game. IMHO.).

I don't like dualism (IRL). I also don't like using cartesian dualism in our game - that would have everyone advancing to the level of Spiritual, and I don't want that at all. I absolutely agree that it is right for some people and wrong for others. Very few people will make it there! Now, this obviously does NOT fit in with any of the popular western beliefs. I think we may have to envision it as a combination of dualism and, say, buddhism or taoism.

Granted, some people may find themselves on the path to becoming a Spiritual without recognizing it, but they must realize and pursue it to continue.

And I agree that it is about time to reopen the Spiritual debate, as it seems to be flourishing now... [grin]

And sure, I'd love to vote on names! If we could get a compiled list, that would be amazing (I can't - it's exam week, plus I have stuff for the city every night)!!

Quote: Original post by Avatar God
And sure, I'd love to vote on names! If we could get a compiled list, that would be amazing (I can't - it's exam week, plus I have stuff for the city every night)!!

Sure, no problem. :)

From the OPRL:
- sunandshadow's
1) Caterpillar Child
2) Caterpillar Children
3) Humanity's Children
4) All Humanity's Children
5) Becoming Butterfly
6) Becoming The Butterfly
7) Butterfly Becoming
8) Apotheosis
9) Chrysalis
10) Xenophilia

- 5minutegaming's
11) Burdened Romance
12) -pobia vs -philia
13) Creators
14) Future Romance
15) Alien Ending
16) War in the Heart
17) Battle of Hearts (alice in wonder land hehehe...it made a great game too.)
18) Ruins of Humanity
19) The last straw
20) Frost-Burn (or frostborn): Past


From the Lounge Thread
- sunandshadow's
21) Xenallure: A Puzzle of Hearts
22) Xenallure: A Tapestry of Hearts
23) Alien Heart: Strategem and Metamorphosis
24) Heartpuzzle: Alien Destiny
25) Heartpuzzle: Alien Allure
26) Hearts' Tapestry: My Alien Future
27) Futureshift: A Puzzle of Hearts
28) Futureshift: A Tapestry of Hearts
29) The Heartkey Tapestry (Main character given last name Heartkey?)
30) The Heartkey Design (ditto)
31) Foreign Flowers, Alien Hearts

- other posters' (I left out some that were too stupid)
Persona Dilectus
Butterfly Children
Chrysalis Influence
Awaken
(something with the intials GD for gamedev)
Trillium
A Human Reaction: Hearts and Minds
Immigrant Butterfly: The Ontology of Desire
Alien Seed: The Calculus of Immigration
Future Shift/Push
The Ethics Stratagem
Mystery of the Dynamic Variant
A World Bonded
Soul's Allure
Virtue and Vice
Paradise: (A) Path to Damnation
Dynamic Awaken
Beyond Nature
Project X: Mankind
Mankind's Realms of Virtue
Uncharted World
Promise Land
Children of the Stars
Beloved Desire of Foreign Seed
The Moral Caterpillar Conundrum
The Sleeper Awakes
My Secret Life
Wide Awake in Another World
The Choice
(The) Exiles
(The) Exiled
Uncharted Future: Course of the Heart

- title word suggestions

Quote:
Romance: love, heart, xenophilia, desire, charm, allure, pursue, court, woo, lover, beloved, suitor, beauty

Transformation: caterpillar, butterfly, apotheosis, chrysalis, metamorphosis, birth, rebirth, become, transcend, flower, awaken

Problem: knot, puzzle, conundrum, dilemma, balance, resolve, solution, manipulate, push, influence, rearrange, pattern, key, lock, design, build, attempt, shift, dynamic, strategem

Familial relationship: human, child, cousin, descendant, seed, alien, other, foreign, alternative, native, outcast, immigrant, stranger, species, breed, variant, family

Philosophy: ethics, cosmogony, ontology, theory, moral, math, algebra, calculus, aesthetics

Time: future

[Edited by - sunandshadow on December 2, 2004 6:30:39 PM]

Re the OPRL - I alredy replied to p.24 and p.25. My replies were:
P.24 Yes, Yes
p.25 Characers should be excluded, 5mg should clarify the process by which "we as a group come up with a proposal" and what should be done about current unresolved proposals such as P21-23: Skew, Magicals, and Technos.

Quote: Original post by S/SWell, if we disagree then we'll have to see what the other staff members think about it.

This is correct. I never expect any resolution based on the discussions of two members. I am not being sarcastic. We are responsible to stand on our grounds and elaborated on ideas that we come up with. If we are a good set of thinkers, ideally there will be a set (or more) of concrete idea from each of us, from which we can base our compromises on.

Quote: Original post by Avatar God
You know, Estok, you'll always win these discussions of random other games - because you have more information and we're just left guessing and interpreting. Not suprisingly, we're often wrong, which you don't hesitate to point out in such a friendly way.

13-tails is not a random discussion about other games. It is a valid outcome based on the initial survey and the on-going discussions about the world buildings, character depths, gameplay, themes, and central ideas.

None of what I have been talking about are random stuffs. They are and has always been valid marks on the gird of possible outcomes that from which we build unstanding of our standards and to base our compromises on.

I do hold more information on my own ideas. However, the point is not to leave you guessing what I mean. I do not require you to believe me and trust me that the outcome will be just fine. I want you to disagree with me, ask me, and make me interpret, so that we can clarify on what we don't share. There is the notion of right and wrong in the discussions, and it is related to whether someone got the ideas and intentions correctly. It is necessary to clarify in our exchange of ideas.

Quote: In that light, I'll just not comment on the Fox's Eye game.

Again, Fox Eye's game is not a random game.

Quote: I agree with sunandshadow that I would like the advancement of things (any things) to be less obvious, and less like earning belts (though there's a time for that, it isn't in our game. IMHO.).

I don't see the association with earning belts. I don't know in what direction I should clarify because I am not sure what you misinterpreted about 13-tails.

My guess is this: I said that for beginners there is the fox tail. The fox tail is not associated with any ability that the PC earns or acquire, and then as the PC 'levels up' the PC can acquire some other tails like 'fire tail' or something. The fox tail as something "for beginners" refers to the player's understanding on the metaphor of the term 'thirteen tails'. There was the idea that that each RNPC has a knot to untie. The 'thirteen tails' refers to thirteen knots. Initially, the player is led to believe that each of the 13-tails has a physical tail, and the meaning of the name is just that. As the game progresses the player is invited to interpret it with its deeper meaning. The tails are metaphors of the contraditions that each 13-tails has to conquer (with the help of the PC) in order to reach spirituality.

Quote: I don't like dualism (IRL). I also don't like using cartesian dualism in our game - that would have everyone advancing to the level of Spiritual, and I don't want that at all. I absolutely agree that it is right for some people and wrong for others. Very few people will make it there!

I did not talk about dualism in the discussion of 13-tails. Was there something that reminded you of it, if so, what was it?

Quote: Now, this obviously does NOT fit in with any of the popular western beliefs. I think we may have to envision it as a combination of dualism and, say, buddhism or taoism.

What 'does NOT fit in with any of the popular western beliefs'? In what ways do you envision it be combined with buddhism and taoism? What are some sample outcomes of such combination?

Quote: Granted, some people may find themselves on the path to becoming a Spiritual without recognizing it, but they must realize and pursue it to continue.

This is correct. There seems to be a subtle difference. In thirteen tails, the characters never proclaim that anything like, "I have realized that I have the potential, and therefore I am not pursuring to become a spiritual." It is an abtract, philosophical achievement. One way to reveal the difference is to answer this question: "How do you envision a character become spiritual? What is the actual process involved?"

Quote: And I agree that it is about time to reopen the Spiritual debate, as it seems to be flourishing now... [grin]

I don't think we are ready for it. For the same reason that I said we were not ready for character creations. The overall game is practically formless. Even if we discuss it we don't have what it takes to guarantee a margin exists for it to fit with other parts of the game world. In addition, we run the risk of compromising based on the false assumptions that we understand the visions of others. In terms of forming a common understanding our visions. Do you regard what I posted about 13-tails as a game review? Regarding the game reviews that s/s and AG wrote I have questions that needs to be clarified.

Quote: Original post by sunandshadow

Quote: Original post by Avatar God
And sure, I'd love to vote on names! If we could get a compiled list, that would be amazing (I can't - it's exam week, plus I have stuff for the city every night)!!

Sure, no problem. :)

There are so many names and only the few of us. How do we vote on it?

I do not regard the 13-tails post as a game review. It's not anywhere detailed enough, and doesn't describe what you though and felt at different pointsin playing the game.

Quote: Original post by Estok

Quote: Original post by sunandshadow

Quote: Original post by Avatar God
And sure, I'd love to vote on names! If we could get a compiled list, that would be amazing (I can't - it's exam week, plus I have stuff for the city every night)!!

Sure, no problem. :)

There are so many names and only the few of us. How do we vote on it?

My suggestion is that we each nominate 2 titles, either from the list or of our own creation (I imagine you will want toreate one since you don't have any on the list). So that will give us 8 suggestions (unless OnyxFlame starts posting again). Each of us can make suggestions for tweaking those titles to make them more likeable to us, and the nominator can choose whether or not to incorporate the suggestions. Then we will each organize the titles in our order of preferance, 1 being the best and 8 the worst. Totalling the rankings each person gives each title, the title with the lowest total will be the most popular and will become our working title. Sound okay to you?

Quote: Original post by sunandshadow
I do not regard the 13-tails post as a game review. It's not anywhere detailed enough, and doesn't describe what you thought and felt at different points in playing the game.

What I posted for 13-tails has as much info as what you posted and what AG posted. I did not simply follow the same format because I actually think that some of the descriptions are not essential. If you want me to show you what I think about a specific topic just ask.

The following version of 13-Tails is the one in which the player directly role-plays the selected character.

The beginning:
The game began with a dreamlike cinematic of a young girl in an event that I could not make out. It seemed to be a chaotic emergency. The young girl was being asked to do something, in an alien language. The girl hesitated, her face was filled with questions and fear. Suddenly everything quieted down. I, as Fox Eye, the character I chose in before the game began, woke up from the dream. It continues with a monologue in which she introduced herself and her pet.

The monologue avoided talking much about the details of the dream. In addition, the girl in the dream did not resemble Fox Eye. I was curious on what that dream means to her and who that girl is.

The monologue continues seemlessly as I was allowed to control the avatar to move around the room exploring different things. I selected the cute pet and there were many options to interact with such as what to feed it and what to train it to do. I looked through the stuffs that she has (I have), and I recognized some items with her in the artwork. I realized that those items are not the ultimate items for this character but the initial sets. I checked the stats of the items and I was excited that there are much more equipments to obtain and abilities to learn.

In the monologue Fox Eye suggested several things that she wanted to do and where she should probably go. The suggestions did not seem to relate to the dream, but rather served as tutorials in which I learned where some key resources are, what they do, how do fight, and how to steal.


*
This is by no mean complete. Disregarding to what you expect in the final game, does this resemble what you expect for me to write about what I expect for the final game? What specific topic or point in the game do you want me to show you my expectation on? You can tell me to jump to the different points in the game, such as how Fox Eye meets another tail, how the manipulations between her and other tails are implemented. If you ask specifically it helps me to prioritize on what to present and keeps the topic relevant to what you want to know. There is also the version in which the player plays a human PC that is not one of the 13-tails if you want.