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Original post by sunandshadow Reply to Estok's game review: I find it ironic that you, who are so concerned about originality and ambiguity, wants to force the game into one of two thoroughly overdone forms. Why does a romance-focused game have to be humorous and innocent? IMO no romance is done well unless it successfully blends humor, drama, and angst. Don't you see that taking a cute 'Cintura Cafe' approach would negate the characters' depth by not presentng them as having real problems with real consequences?

The Cintura Cafe in the game review is not the same as the one I posted while discussinng the titles. In the game review, I didn't mention the 'cute' word once. You can see the Cintura Cafe as a modern romantic novel. It does not have to be humorous, being humorous is a style choice, because I am envisioning to be something fun to read, something that you would laugh at while reading it in the airport or something. On the other hand, 'innocent' does not refer to the characters but to the blending between technology and magics. A lot of times the depictions of technology and magics get very uptight and technical, this review is supporting a relaxed version that does not try to present our version of techs and magics as a prophecy nor the 'most accurate and scientifically correct prediction of the future'. In the game review version of Cintura Cafe I emphasized the integration and realistic presentation of the characters. So what you accused of being dumbed down is in fact non-existant.

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And combining the mystery and romance is what will make this game appealing to teens adults of both genders. I don't want to sound like a school teacher here, but please re-do your game review to actually fit the game we've been discussing here for 2 months - you know, the one which has mystery, romance, strategy, politics, philosophy, and the full range of human emotions.

The mystery, romance, philosophies
, etc are still in both versions (the 1.Myster and 2.Cintura). However, in Cintura the strategy and politics are probabbly not in the global scale. In other words, in Cintura the PC won't become an influential politician or start or stop wars or anything like that. But there will still be alliance, there will still be lies, there are still betrayals, backstabs, etc.

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While you're at it, a title suggestion that described something actually in the game would also be nice. And please, I know you originally specified a 1-paragraph length, but if you could use the longer and more detailed format I and Avatar God used and 5MG is currently working on, that would better communicate your desires to us and would be easier to compare and combine with our responses to come up with our group goal for what it should belike to play the game. :)

One main purpose of this exercise, as I stated before, is to show what each of us emphasize on. This is the reason why it is originally limited to 1 paragraph. It was not aimed to be a full review or gameplay experience. From my post you won't get the question "is it really necessary to have the PC customizerable like in WOW?" because everything in the paragraph is essential. For me having 3d models and the like are not essential. It is okay for me if it is a text-based interactive game story.

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About Follow: The jist of what I have to say is that if the technos are hermaphrodites we have to write about them being hermaphrodites, as I mentioned in Follow's purposes section. I agree that Follow just getting a crush on Lion and deciding to crossdress is too simplistic, I only wanted a response to the character hirself, to guide me as I worked on the plot more.

I did give you a response to the character hirself. I said that sie is too simplisitic and hir motive is too selfish. At the same time I did not suggest you to change the motive into a less selfish form, I was just pointing out that that motive contradicts with the personality.

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Believe me, I've studies the psychology of crossdressing and read a huge variety of crossdressing stories, including both of the scenarios you described, and some of these stories were written by actual crossdressers, so it shouldn't be difficult to come up with an interesting, funny, psychologically and sociologically accurate little story about how Follow got started crossdressing.

In general there is no reason for me to believe you. There won't be any need to communicate if we just believe even though we don't fully know, would it?

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What I want to know is, do you all think Follow is too similar to Kitten? Do you think Follow is an appealing character? Sie is vaguely based on Nuriko from the anime series _Fushigi Yuugi_ who is THE most popular character in that fandom, so I'm hoping Follow should be very popular with our players...

For me, being too similar to another character is not a constrain. If one of them turn out to be more realistic we might as well eliminate the other one. I would suggest that both be continue developed and see what happens. A hermaphrodite crossdressing is not very effective is it? They probably are like crossdressers to begin with (?)

Ah, yes, I guess I didn't really think about how the WoW character stuff worked. One female, and one male character, but you could change things like hair or eye or clothes coloring. That would be enough variety for me. Blonde/brown/black, blue/green/gray.

Well, I guess I should define Kitten some before we could say that :) But I think they will be different enough.

3.3.2. Name - Kitten
3.3.2.1. Type of Love - Selfless
3.3.2.2. Story Role -
3.3.2.3. Race - Magical
3.3.2.4. Gender - Female
3.3.2.5. Appearance - Generally average, with a pretty face. Big, sparkling eyes, cat ears, and a cute tail.
3.3.2.6. Personality and Motivation - Kitten is a truly kind person - she enjoys helping others and making them feel better about themselves and their environments. She is an empathizer able to put herself into anyones shoes and feel their feelings. But sometimes she thinks about her own problems too much and leads her to doubt herself. She is a truly beautiful women inside and out to her friends. She likes being alone at times, but really enjoys being with her friends and having fun when it is appropriate. She is very perceptive of social situations, and can react intuitively to even the most unexpected situations without feeling too much anxiety. Kitten is mature in some ways, but her driving force is her innocence - she doesn't realize that the friends she tries to help, even the ones she truly respects, are often flawed and prejudiced. She is just starting to find the grey moral areas that define the lives of so many others and discovers that there often is no right choice. Perhaps the moral choice sometimes may be to *not* help someone.
3.3.1.7. Dialect and Speech Quirks - She sings as a hobby, with a voice something like Norah Jones...
3.3.1.8. Backstory and Personal History -
3.3.1.9. Abilities -
3.3.1.10. Clothing - Simple, but very classy dresser.
3.3.1.11. Weapon -
3.3.1.12. Purposes - Innocence, moral questioning, individuation.
3.3.1.13. Possible Changes During the Plot - She discovers moral ambiguity - but how will she go from here? She has some serious choices to make - choices which could be heavily influenced by the player.

Obviously, this isn't entirely done, but I'd still like to see what you think so far.

//edit. They should all be 3.4.1.xx, sorry.

[Edited by - Avatar God on November 25, 2004 11:47:31 PM]

Crossdressing (or in the former form, shape shifting) is a strategic move, Should we reserve this option for the PC? Instead of creating a character that conducts the crossdressing, the related moral issues and consideration are tied directly to the PC, if the PC selects such strategy.

Hold on. I forgot to mention that your idea of crossdressing has absolutely nothing to do with crossdressing. I'm relatively sure that sunandshadow means crossdressing the same way that everyone else on the planet does:

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Merriam Webster Main Entry: cross-dress·ing Pronunciation: 'kros-"dre-si[ng] Function: noun : the wearing of clothes designed for the opposite sex - cross-dress intransitive verb - cross-dress·er noun

while you are talking about shapeshifting:

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Merriam Webster Main Entry: shape-shift·er Pronunciation: 'shAp-"shif-t&r Function: noun : one that seems able to change form at will

Because Follow is not actually changing form, just clothes and masquerading as the opposite race. I thought we had reserved true shapeshifting for the Spirituals, actually. I don't think the PC should be able to shapeshift before that point.

By the way, this thread is the 10th hottest of all time! [grin]

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Original post by Estok The Cintura Cafe in the game review is not the same as the one I posted while discussinng the titles. In the game review, I didn't mention the 'cute' word once. You can see the Cintura Cafe as a modern romantic novel. It does not have to be humorous, being humorous is a style choice, because I am envisioning to be something fun to read, something that you would laugh at while reading it in the airport or something. On the other hand, 'innocent' does not refer to the characters but to the blending between technology and magics. A lot of times the depictions of technology and magics get very uptight and technical, this review is supporting a relaxed version that does not try to present our version of techs and magics as a prophecy nor the 'most accurate and scientifically correct prediction of the future'. In the game review version of Cintura Cafe I emphasized the integration and realistic presentation of the characters. So what you accused of being dumbed down is in fact non-existant.

If you're going to use the same title for two inconsistent ideas it's very misleading of you not to warn us that you are doing this. You may not have used the word cute, but you used "inviting, humorous, enjoyable, touching" which are all words typically used to describe cute pg/pg-13 stories intended for an average intelligence early teen female audience, which is not AT ALL what we have stated we are aiming for. An "airport reading" book is by definition dumbed-down, and I would be SERIOUSLY INSULTED if anyone ever classified something I wrote as a casual, amusing read - I don't know about you, but I'm writing LITERATURE, with phlosophy, psychology, and worldbuilding that should call forth some serious contemplation from my audience.

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The mystery, romance, philosophies, etc are still in both versions (the 1.Mystery and 2.Cintura). However, in Cintura the strategy and politics are probably not in the global scale. In other words, in Cintura the PC won't become an influential politician or start or stop wars or anything like that. But there will still be alliance, there will still be lies, there are still betrayals, backstabs, etc. One main purpose of this exercise, as I stated before, is to show what each of us emphasize on. This is the reason why it is originally limited to 1 paragraph. It was not aimed to be a full review or gameplay experience. From my post you won't get the question "is it really necessary to have the PC customizerable like in WOW?" because everything in the paragraph is essential. For me having 3d models and the like are not essential. It is okay for me if it is a text-based interactive game story.

Your first paragraph here is the answer to your second - if I couldn't tell that the game would contain all those things, obviously the game review did not communicate your idea of the game successfully to me. I will ask you one more time: PLEASE write a much more detailed hypothetical game review that will fully communicate to us everything you are currently imagining and wishing the game will be like. You've shown us the elements you think are essential, now please provide us with a complete description of the elements you think would/should be in the game so that we can understand your vision and work to define a compromise vision for our team to work together toward.

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Quote: Original post by sunandshadow: Believe me, I've studies the psychology of crossdressing and read a huge variety of crossdressing stories, including both of the scenarios you described, and some of these stories were written by actual crossdressers, so it shouldn't be difficult to come up with an interesting, funny, psychologically and sociologically accurate little story about how Follow got started crossdressing. In general there is no reason for me to believe you. There won't be any need to communicate if we just believe even though we don't fully know, would it?

>.< How about the fact that it's polite to assume your fellow team members are honest and competent until proven otherwise? How about acknowledging the fact that I have ten years of writing experience, and any good writer is capable of emulating any type of story they have read enough examples of? How about the fact that as a writer you should know damn well I can't try to communicate everything at once, and the fact that if you respect me at all you should be patient enought to wait for me to develop a plot idea when I say I'm going to do so? In short, your response here was just rude.

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For me, being too similar to another character is not a constrain. If one of them turn out to be more realistic we might as well eliminate the other one. I would suggest that both be continue developed and see what happens. A hermaphrodite crossdressing is not very effective is it? They probably are like crossdressers to begin with (?)

Of course being too similar to another character is a constraint! It's bad writing practice to have redudant anything, ESPECIALLY characters, and since I'm happy with Kitten so far I don't want to waste my effort developing a character who might have to be discarded.

I believe a hermaphrodite crossdressing is potentially much more effective than standard crossdressing. And a hermaphrodite living in a society of hermaphrodites is nothing like a crossdresser to begin with. A hermaphrodite is a person with both a penis and a vagina, in case that isn't obvious. A crossdresser is a person pretending to be someone whom they anatomically are not, and trying to take up a gender role different than the one they were raised to as a child. A techno child grows up in a world where everyone is a hermaphrodite and wears techno clothes. I want to explore the psychology of a character like this dressing in magical female clothes. (Techno clothes are totally different from magical clothes, and magical female clothes are distinctly different from magical male clothes because of their strong gender roles; this is the kind of culture where women can't wear pants and men certainly can't wear skirts or high heels.)

Follow's psychology in this siuation is fascinating because at the start sie doesn't really understand what it means to be female or why Lion would be violently set against getting romantically involved with Follow just because of Follow's anatomy, which is perfectly normal to hir. After Follow figures these things out and gets some approval from Lion sie will be torn between thinking of hirself as a good female, thinking of hirself as a flawed female, and thinking of hirself as a fraud; also sie will be torn between falling in love with Lion and being afraid that he will hurt hir when he finds out the truth.

Lion's psychology will also be quite interesting as he know's there's something a bit odd about Follow, but she flatters his ego and her shyness calls forth his protective instincts, which confuses him; he's never fallen in love before because usually his physical attraction is directed at 'easy' magical females while his caring is directed at his sister, but now Follow, who's definitely not easy (because sie can't let Lion find out sie's a hermaphrodite) might be more in need of his protection for his sister; just the kind of girl Lion might actually marry rather than just sleeping with casually. So he could be really hurt, and that hurt would turn to anger and violence, if Lion found out Follow's secret and felt betrayed and used. This is a great volatile situation for the PC to watch develop and have fun interfering in; at least I think so, you probably think it's too extreme and over the top. Well, tough; it will be good for our game to have some subplots be more sensational and some less so, and this is what I want to do with my two characters.

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Original post by Avatar God 3.3.2. Name - Kitten 3.3.2.1. Type of Love - Selfless 3.3.2.2. Story Role - 3.3.2.3. Race - Magical 3.3.2.4. Gender - Female 3.3.2.5. Appearance - Generally average, with a pretty face. Big, sparkling eyes, cat ears, and a cute tail. 3.3.2.6. Personality and Motivation - Kitten is a truly kind person - she enjoys helping others and making them feel better about themselves and their environments. She is an empathizer able to put herself into anyones shoes and feel their feelings. But sometimes she thinks about her own problems too much and leads her to doubt herself. She is a truly beautiful women inside and out to her friends. She likes being alone at times, but really enjoys being with her friends and having fun when it is appropriate. She is very perceptive of social situations, and can react intuitively to even the most unexpected situations without feeling too much anxiety. Kitten is mature in some ways, but her driving force is her innocence - she doesn't realize that the friends she tries to help, even the ones she truly respects, are often flawed and prejudiced. She is just starting to find the grey moral areas that define the lives of so many others and discovers that there often is no right choice. Perhaps the moral choice sometimes may be to *not* help someone. 3.3.1.7. Dialect and Speech Quirks - She sings as a hobby, with a voice something like Norah Jones... 3.3.1.8. Backstory and Personal History - 3.3.1.9. Abilities - 3.3.1.10. Clothing - Simple, but very classy dresser. 3.3.1.11. Weapon - 3.3.1.12. Purposes - Innocence, moral questioning, individuation. 3.3.1.13. Possible Changes During the Plot - She discovers moral ambiguity - but how will she go from here? She has some serious choices to make - choices which could be heavily influenced by the player. Obviously, this isn't entirely done, but I'd still like to see what you think so far. //edit. They should all be 3.4.1.xx, sorry.

Don't worry abot the numbers, I'll sort them all out when I put the final version in the design doc. :)

Hmm, classy dresser? I was thinking girly cute clothing probably involving bows, vaguely like a cheerleader outfit or sailor fuku - that look is generally very popular and should help convey that she's supposed to be highschool age. Also since magical females are exaggeratedly female she should probably be short and curvy, but then again if she's young enough she might not have the big chest and hips yet. Eh, just my thoughts, it's all your call of course. But definitely her friends and especially her big brother Lion should think of her as a girl rather than a woman, that's kind of essential to the whole 'innocence' issue. Story role would probably be Sidekick, and a previous suggestion I remember was that her abilities should defnitely include healing... that's all the comments I can think of at the moment. Good start! :)

What kind of incidents do you think might foreshadow and then fully show the significance of her innocence/optimism/faith vs. moral gray areas/realism/justice internal conflict?

It really would be helpful if you (Estok) wrote a game review - remember, it isn't there to include plot details, its to see what we want to get out of the game. It's hard to see that from two greatly different paragraphs of... plot.

I might classify your work as amusing, sunandshadow, but only on one level. Damn if I don't crack up a lot reading it [grin] - but you also put in things on deeper levels that makes it so much more interesting! I'm glad you're heading this up... because that seems to be exactly what we're going for in the game!

On another sidenote, I finally figured out what you (Estok) were saying about the crossdressers, so just imagine that I gave the same response as I did, but toned down.

And I do like the problems that Follow is going to have to face. I didn't think about the fact that Follow wouldn't even understand what it was to be male or female.