How does the "we as a group come up with a proposal" part work? How does this apply to the currently open topics in the OPRL (population, Skew, technos, magicals, etc.)?

I would suggest that it would be best to exempt characters from this process, because modifying someone's character design in ways they don't like is an easy way to guarantee that they aren't inspired to write the specific scenes and dialogue for that character later. Creative control over the character is like the reward each of us gets for promising to do all the work of developing and implementing them. I was quite happy with the net result of my discussions with Estok about Skew, I just wish everybody else would each write me one detailed response to his proposal, and I still want to see everyone's hypothetical "game reviews".

P25.1.A
I certainly agree with sunandshadow that we need a lot more leeway over the characters. Sure, we need some oversight, but not in nearly the same way. In fact, I'm pretty dead-set on this. We should still, however, provide specific feedback on the characters (I'll do it for Skew in a minute!).

It will take a lot longer for us to only post once to the proposal before moving on, but I see the benefits. This, I would be okay with either way.

I'm also about to do the hypothetical game review...

By the way, sunandshadow's review is three-quarters of the way down page 27 if you want to look at it again.

REVIEW

You know, this was a good game right from the start. You get a good feeling when you even like the *box* it's packaged in. It had a beautiful collage of characters surrounding the (excellent!) title logo. You can already tell that the characters are going to be different - personalities, occupations ... maybe even romantic styles! I couldn't wait to meet them.

Right off, I got a World of Warcraft style character editing screen (thank god). I usually play as female in games the first time through, just to get the feel for it (and the fun of it!) before really developing relationships that might mirror my own life too closely. I have to say, the cinematics and music are excellent, even just sitting at the menus can be fun - they don't use the normal cookie-cutter buttons, but are different and ingeniously intriguing for every menu. Sure, it takes a minute to figure it out... but it's worth it!

I'm getting to meet a few of the players (and myself!) already with some pre-scripted events, but still have enough leeway over my own personality that I can be who I am - or who I want to be. Not to mention that I'm having some odd effects on the others in the game by trying to switch back and forth! I like the method of relating to the other characters, and love that there's no (visible!) RelationshipMeter(tm) to gauge my progress. The little puzzles and tests are enjoyable and not at all annoying like they get in some games. After playing Halo 2 for three weeks, I'm glad for something that really requires some thought... and even some introspection to think about some of the philosophy that is seemlessly integrated into the game (Who knew that Kant could be so fun?).

Truly, I've gotten to know most of the other characters by now, and am getting interested in some of the politics. But I'm finding that whatever political alliances I try to join or create greatly affects my romantic ties with others - the Magical-Techno chasm must run deeper than I imagined. Perhaps I'll be able to understand it eventually, but for now I'll settle with handling one thing at a time. Except of course, when I'm trying to court more than one person at a time... and that's getting tough now.

The game is impressively open. I'm still able to play with my actions and personality, and more importantly, my speech. It really impacts the actions of the other characters, and I'm starting to see the indirect consequences of some of my previous actions. Talk about trying to change first impressions. Best of all, the game carries out this dynamicism while maintaining the dialogue and feel of a great book - I smile and grin and laugh, but still have to think about things - and when I'm tired of that, I can just stand back and enjoy the scenery.

Unfortunately for me, I seem to have done something (okay, tried to hook up with two characters at one time...) that lost me one of the more important relationships I've had in the game. And at the same time, new opportunities have arisen; still, I don't know if I want to move ahead, try to fix what I've done... or both! Hopefully I won't screw it all up!

Well, things are finally starting to come together, too. There were some mysteries that loomed over most of the game that are finally starting to come into focus (damned if I could have predicted more than one of them) and loose ends are falling into place. I'm able to make a major change to my own self and the world around me as the game builds to a climax and gradually falls into a loose conclusion... that somehow only makes we want to play more!

And I have the chance! In the game+, I can fix some of the things I did, but from a new perspective, and maybe I won't anger that pretty little love interest this time - perhaps things will work out even better. But now I'm starting to wonder - is there a larger issue remaining that I haven't seen yet? I'm starting to understand the Techno-Magical relations, but what about the ethereal Spirituals? Who are they, where are they from? Well, I guess it may be a while before I figure that out, but in the meantime... "Hey, Kitten!" ...

Nice! :) Hmm, can we get some screencaps of the World of Warcraft character editing screen? If it's anything like the Sims2 character creation process it might take absurd amounts of modelling work to implement. Personally I was thinking it would be much more practical to just have one non-customizable PC character in male and female versions, but would that make the game a lot less cool to play to you?

Titles again - Do we want to come up with a name for our game design team too? I mean, we could just call ourselves Gamedev Collaborative Games but that doesn't have much of a ring to it, and it could get confusing if gamedev sponsored any other game design teams; since our original goal was to produce deep, thought-provoking games maybe our team name should communicate that.



Here's a brief description of that shy, cute techno I said I was going to do. If we each only get two characters I want Skew to be my first and this to be my second.

Follow

3.3.2. Name – Follow (FollowTheLeader)
3.3.2.1. Type of Love – Submissive
3.3.2.2. Story Role – Needs Rescued/Protected
3.3.2.3. Race – Techno
3.3.2.4. Gender – Hermaphroditic (cute and boyish)
3.3.2.5. Appearance – A little shorter and stockier than the average techno, Follow is the shy cute boyish type. (See my sketches of Attranath's face.) Since Follow is going to crossdress as a female magical, it is important that sie not have any obvious metal pieces or tattoos that can't be hidden by magical clothing.
3.3.2.6. Personality and Motivation – Follow is a submissive looking for a dominant. Sie doesn't like being alone and the fact that everyone is isolated from everyone else is what sie dislikes the most about techno culture. Sie also doesn't like the social pressure to look unique because sie doesn't like making decisions, even aesthetic ones, and sie aesthetically prefers average, normal, comfortable things rather than the extremes many other technos like. Sie has been a big fan of a few techno celebrities, but was unsatisfied with the lack of intimacy and reciprocity – Follow wants to be someone's personal fan. Follow tends to worry about other people's feelings and what they think of hir, especially as regards hir fear of hir friends deciding they don't like hir any more and leaving hir alone.

Follow is also painfully earnest and shy, which is why sie has interesting internal conflict over the idea of dressing deceptively and actively approaching Lion try to win his approval.
3.3.1.7. Dialect and Speech Quirks – Follow never gives orders or makes strong direct statements, instead using lots of “mights”, “maybes”, and the hypothetical subjunctive tense.
3.3.1.8. Backstory and Personal History – ?
3.3.1.9. Abilities –
3.3.1.10. Clothing – Normally wears very plain techno clothing, often with a band or other celebrity's logo. Crossdresses in a simple magical female dress to pursue hir crush on Lion.
3.3.1.11. Weapon – Only fights alongside hir current leader. Doesn't attack unless Lion or PC is incapacitated - instead casts power-ups, shields, healing, and lends hir power to turn Lion's/PC's attacks into more powerful combos.
3.3.1.12. Purposes – Submissiveness, Hermaphroditism and Acceptance, Identity Issues incl. crossdressing and worrying about Honesty, Critic of Techno Culture. Provides info about history, especially the origin of hermaphroditism and persecution of proto-technos.
3.3.1.13. Possible Changes During the Plot – Follow gets a crush on Lion, goes through some agony about Lion never being attracted to hir, crossdresses as a female magical, and has to deal with the consequences of this decision.


That's just my inital rough idea - any thoughts/suggestions?

Quote: Original post by 5MinuteGaming
Ok here is an idea of how we can keep things on track and allow all of us to respond to a particular Proposal.

We initially saw the format as a means to limit discussion but since the discussions that we're having have become in an argument fashion I think its time for a limit.

P25.1.F
I propose that we as a group come up with a Proposal for a specific aspect of the game and then allow each team member who actively posts replies to simple remark on the proposal. We will allow for only one post per person per revision. So basically it will work like this proposal is posted using the format we agreed on for the OPRL. Then each person will write where they agree and disagree or if they want they can rewrite the proposal. You may post only once so that everyone has a chance to reply without having to read a huge discussion between two or three people. Once everyone who is active has posted the original poster will be given a chance to compromise his/her proposal. Now we keep revising until we have a concensus and we stick to one and only one topic at a time.

What you have described is not different from how the OPRL is supposed to be used. If you look at the way P17 is conducted, I posed a set of surveys problems and each of you replied to it once, and then I moved on. (But in the case of P17 I am still collecting data, and have not gotten to the point of revising it or making a compromise.) And also, I did not move on to create any other new proposals except P24 which s/s suggested us to each do. In short, the synchronization system is already there.

Quote: This will help to keep us on track and to keep us updating the OPRL and the Game Design Document. We have a lot of good ideas and we need to bring them together. Since this is a Collaborative Game Story we should not let everyone go off and define their own characters, items, places, things without getting them aproved by the rest of the members or in corporating the other team members ideas.

Again, this is already incorporated in the OPRL. No one is definding any characters items places without other's approval, according to the OPRL. If you read the wordings of P24 (and other proposals) carefully, It is in fact a seek of approval before continuing.

In short, I agree with this proposal, but it is basically the same as what we alredy have.

___________
OPRL

Re Game Review
I have several views on what the final game can be.



1. Mystery
As a mystery game, the reasons that I like this game is the profound revelations behind the mysteries. The revelations are relevant to our world, and are presented in a deep and touching way. The plots of this game really resemble those of a good detective novel. Many times I found myself surprised, impressed and even afriad of what the truth is revealed. As a multi-ending game, while each ending makes sense on its own, but them are also connected among other endings to present a compete view of the mystery. At the end, I am left with not one but many possible explainations. Overall, the game story is subtle yet powerful in presenting the ideas, without sounding preachy or forced. The romantic developments are integrated with the ideas to serve as metaphors and foreshadows.



2. Cintura Cafe
The first thing I like about this game is how it has an inviting, cheerul, and humorous tone that makes it irresistable. The distinct personalities of the characters are highlighted but not exaggerated, making them very life-like, realistic, and ejoyable to interact with. The characters are believable and naturally integrated with the blended world with technology and magics. The blended techno-magico environment is a major source of enjoyment that distinguishes this game from those that just have technology, magics, or a simple stark contrast of the two. Manytimes I found myself marvel at the creative and witty humor arose from the innocent mixing of technology and magics. Behind each character, there reveals a touching story and an admirable positive spirit.

Quote: Original post by sunandshadow
Here's a brief description of that shy, cute techno I said I was going to do. If we each only get two characters I want Skew to be my first and this to be my second.

Follow
3.3.2. Name – Follow (FollowTheLeader)
3.3.2.1. Type of Love – Submissive
3.3.2.2. Story Role – Needs Rescued/Protected
3.3.2.3. Race – Techno
3.3.2.4. Gender – Hermaphroditic (cute and boyish)
3.3.2.5. Appearance – A little shorter and stockier than the average techno, Follow is the shy cute boyish type. (See my sketches of Attranath's face.) Since Follow is going to crossdress as a female magical, it is important that sie not have any obvious metal pieces or tattoos that can't be hidden by magical clothing.
3.3.2.6. Personality and Motivation – Follow is a submissive looking for a dominant. Sie doesn't like being alone and the fact that everyone is isolated from everyone else is what sie dislikes the most about techno culture. Sie also doesn't like the social pressure to look unique because sie doesn't like making decisions, even aesthetic ones, and sie aesthetically prefers average, normal, comfortable things rather than the extremes many other technos like. Sie has been a big fan of a few techno celebrities, but was unsatisfied with the lack of intimacy and reciprocity – Follow wants to be someone's personal fan. Follow tends to worry about other people's feelings and what they think of hir, especially as regards hir fear of hir friends deciding they don't like hir any more and leaving hir alone.

Follow is also painfully earnest and shy, which is why sie has interesting internal conflict over the idea of dressing deceptively and actively approaching Lion try to win his approval.
3.3.1.7. Dialect and Speech Quirks – Follow never gives orders or makes strong direct statements, instead using lots of “mights”, “maybes”, and the hypothetical subjunctive tense.
3.3.1.8. Backstory and Personal History – ?
3.3.1.9. Abilities –
3.3.1.10. Clothing – Normally wears very plain techno clothing, often with a band or other celebrity's logo. Crossdresses in a simple magical female dress to pursue hir crush on Lion.
3.3.1.11. Weapon – Only fights alongside hir current leader. Doesn't attack unless Lion or PC is incapacitated - instead casts power-ups, shields, healing, and lends hir power to turn Lion's/PC's attacks into more powerful combos.
3.3.1.12. Purposes – Submissiveness, Hermaphroditism and Acceptance, Identity Issues incl. crossdressing and worrying about Honesty, Critic of Techno Culture. Provides info about history, especially the origin of hermaphroditism and persecution of proto-technos.
3.3.1.13. Possible Changes During the Plot – Follow gets a crush on Lion, goes through some agony about Lion never being attracted to hir, crossdresses as a female magical, and has to deal with the consequences of this decision.


That's just my inital rough idea - any thoughts/suggestions?

I have a different take on the reason of crossdressing (or simply pretending to be someone else). The situation also involves a personality very similar to Follow, but it is not Follow who crossdresses. Define two characters Mary and John:

John is the dumb shy guy with no talent. He is not popular, not successful, although hard working. Most people consider him linear, not very smart, and indecisive. Again he does not have a lot of brains in the sense that he is not good at math or science or language or any subjects of any sorts. The only thing that he is somewhat good at is working out, because he is dedicated, hardworking, and he never gives up. (Althouth he is at the same time not as buff as say Lion. He is also not aggresive and avoid problems. Many would see him as a pushover (for those that care). He does have a kind and good heart which does not get much attention. In short, he has no friends and for the friends he has they make fun of him.

Mary is the smart girl type. She is talented and excell in everything that John is not good at. She has a strong vision and goal that John doesn't have. Due to her the nature of her parents occupation, she always have to move from one place to another. It ends up that she is unable to keep in contact with her friends, and she never had any lasting friendship or relationship. She has developed an introverted personality that makes her not value friendship very much but at the same time she is very lonely.

John and Mary know each other one day when Mary started the conversation, or situation required that Mary and John be partners of some sort. John turns out like to talk a lot, and Mary is a good listener. Mary always help out John and John sees her as a savior. Mary see John's kind personality, and always want to make him more outspoken. Being too shy and having no confident are the flaws that Mary wants John to change. Mary is often irritated (and flattered) by John when he makes comments such as, "You are so smart, I would never understand this."

Relationship-wise, Mary is someone unattainable in John's eyes. She is too good for him. On the other hand Mary does not have high value on long lasting relationship. For her, John is probably just one of those many others that would fade as time passes. But there are some attractive traits that John has, for example, although he is a pushover in general he would stand to protect Mary eventhough he is no match to what he is opposing.

The term of partnership was coming to an end. There might be some chemistry going on between them, but neither of them had made a move.

The non-crossdressing version is that Mary simply pretend to be someone else to hit on John. Maybe John secretly has a crush on some other girl, and Mary decided to help him. However, in the process, Mary discovered that that other girl was just playing him. Mary became very angry, on one hand she wants to get back at that other girl on the other hand she doesn't want to hurt John.

The crossdressing comes in if Mary is actually a guy. (And John knows Mary as a guy.) In other words, Mary is a smart, inventive guy that is afraid of girls. He is hopelessly inadept with girls, but he has the mindset that seeks the ideal girl that would treat him such and such. From his relation with John, he found out that John deserves the love that he always wanted. Mary's wish to receive that ideal love transforms into a desire to give that love to John.


I think that the idea how Follow is rejected by Lion so Follow crossdress to attract him is too simplistic. You mentioned how Follow always think in terms of other first, but this decision confits with his personality. His decision seems more selfish and less involved if you compare it with the motive behind how Mary pretend to be someone else in both crossdress and non-crossdress versions.

Reply to Estok's game review: I find it ironic that you, who are so concerned about originality and ambiguity, wants to force the game into one of two thoroughly overdone forms. Why does a romance-focused game have to be humorous and innocent? IMO no romance is done well unless it successfully blends humor, drama, and angst. Don't you see that taking a cute 'Cintura Cafe' approach would negate the characters' depth by not presentng them as having real problems with real consequences? Don't you feel that such a presentation would insult Frequency? If we wanted to make just another romantic comedy anime targeted at 14 year olds we wouldn't have needed to spend more than 2 months designing the worldbuilding.

And combining the mystery and romance is what will make this game appealing to teens adults of both genders. I don't want to sound like a school teacher here, but please re-do your game review to actually fit the game we've been discussing here for 2 months - you know, the one which has mystery, romance, strategy, politics, philosophy, and the full range of human emotions. While you're at it, a title suggestion that describedsomething actually in the game would also be nice. And please, I know you originally specified a 1-paragraph length, but if you could use the longer and more detailed format I and Avatar God used and 5MG is currently working on, that would better communicate your desires to us and would be easier to compare and combine with our responses to come up with our group goal for what it should belike to play the game. :)



About Follow: The jist of what I have to say is that if the technos are hermaphrodites we have to write about them being hermaphrodites, as I mentioned in Follow's purposes section. I agree that Follow just getting a crush on Lion and deciding to crossdress is too simplistic, I only wanted a response to the character hirself, to guide me as I worked on the plot more. Believe me, I've studies the psychology of crossdressing and read a huge variety of crossdressing stories, including both of the scenarios you described, and some of these stories were written by actual crossdressers, so it shouldn't be difficult to come up with an interesting, funny, psychologically and sociologically accurate little story about how Follow got started crossdressing.

What I want to know is, do you all think Follow is too similar to Kitten? Do you think Follow is an appealing character? Sie is vaguely based on Nuriko from the anime series _Fushigi Yuugi_ who is THE most popular character in that fandom, so I'm hoping Follow should be very popular with our players...

[Edited by - sunandshadow on November 25, 2004 6:49:50 AM]