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Original post by Estok In addition, I would suggest that the Technos don't have to take pills like they have to. They can eat anything they want and the add-ons will still survive and function. However, the extra ingredients signal different (unique) growth patterns of the add-ons. For example, when the PC implant itself with an add-on, it is the basic, totipotent version. It can become anything depending on what you feed it (what you feed yourself). In other words the implant is a symbiotic parasite (this idea is not new). This fits with an old idea that the PC can cultivate something, and another view that converting into a techno is an on-going process.

I like this, although I would suggest that rather than the techno's regular food intake affecting the growth of symbiotic parts (because the technos are sort of control freaks and would not want any randomness in how their parts grew), it should be that the techno takes a pill or injection which contains new directions for the nanobots whenever they want to start, stop, or change a part's growth.

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Quote: Original post by sunandshadow No, I want the technos' children to come about in more-or-less the regular way because that way their lack of parenting comments directly on the way modern urbnites (in reality I mean) often don't want to have children or maintain any family ties. I see the lack of family as a huge, ignored problem in modern society that I want to talk about in the game through contrasting the magicals' large and strong but dictatorial families with the technos free but cold lack of families, and somewhere in there should be an example of a polyamoric family of choice, although I haven't figured out where yet. This is disappointing but acceptable.

Why is it disappointing? If you particlarly want a race to have children in an unusual way, perhaps abndoning them like cuckoos, this is just what I have been suggesting for the spirituals...

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I don't think you get the personality of Frequency. She won't do this: "You could even put Freque in disquise as a female magical, trying to act feminine to make a good impression on Lion...". For me this is crossing the line between surprising and ridicuing the player. This is a comment that I don't want (you might find it amusing to aim for) Player A, "OMG this game is so cool i am in love with Frequency." Player B, "Frequency is a dude, dude." Player A, "WTF?!" and the 'damn's continues. Player A, "OMG I am going to tell C to play this." If this is what it takes to make the game memorable and recommended by the players then let it be.

I can understand that trying to decieve anyone might be out of character for Freque, so I will accept that reason for her/hir not to do it. But IMO a techno hermaphrodite is not a 'dude' any more than sie is a 'chick'. It's not an insult to the player to present a hermaphrodite to them as an object of desire, hermaphrodites have as mugh right to be considered attractive as anybody else. Although I agree that it might be more polite to tell the player right away that this character is a hermaphrodite - in my suggestion I wasn't intending it to surprise the player, only Lion who, IMO, deserves it. To me it seems a very logical course of action that a techno with a hopeless crush on a magical would try to make themselves more attractive to their crush by trying to look like the gender their crush is usually attracted to. I personally really like the idea of Frequency as a born techno who meets Lion through windracing and develops a crush on him because his decisivenes balances hir wavering, but Frequency is your character and what to do wih her is ultimately your choice unless all the other staff members got together to veto it. I could have the major villain or some other techno do the crossdressing instead, I suppose. I will still be unhappy if both Skew and Frequency are magicals living among the technos - I would make Skew a techno if I could, but I can't because he needs to have been tormented by Lion as a child. o.O

Are you going to put together a charater description for Frequency like I did for Skew? That would help me understand what you definitely want to do with her.

Speaking of Lion, since you were talking a bit about the qualities of heroes (courage, determination) could you make some sugestions for how Lion's backstory and subplot can show him as heroic?

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Quote: Well, dealing with romantic themes in a realistic adult way will automatically get us a rating of Teen. Whether that got raised to Mature or not woud depend on how we wanted to portray sex in the game, and whether suicide and murder are possibilities in any of the plot branches. Personally, I don't really care whether we want our romance to be 'sweet' (glossing over the sex scenes) or 'spicy' (portraying the sex sceens with a medium amount of detail). For a book I would definately choose the latter, but in a game it might be very difficult to do sex scenes in non-cheesy ways. What do the rest of you think? I think that I am more in the 'sex is implied or non-existent' catagory. We can set up intimate and romantic situations that are suggestive to the player but not explicit. Do you think that it is just unsatisfactory?

I don't mind 'sex is implied', but 'sex is nonexistent' would be very unsatisfactory to me. No piece of literature is truly mature unless it acknowledges physical intimacy as part of the relationship spectrum, and I think it is an important strategic landmark for the player when an RNPC agrees to sleep with the PC for the first time.

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Quote: I wanted it to be a distant ancestor rather than an immediate ancestor so there is more of a sense the Freque's magical wings are surprising, freaky, a throwback, a hint that no matter how much sie tries people aren't going to see hir as a normal techno. The major resistance here is that Frequency would be a techno doing it this way. Another resistance again, is that Frequency can very well go back to the magicals because she is a normal magical. And that highlight the sense that she is only unique in the techno eyes, if she goes back there is nothing special about her.

My personal opinion is that Freque has the personality of a techno, and s less redundant with Skew as a techno, so I would prefer that, but as I said, Freque is your character and I am only making suggestions and telling you what would make me happiest, the choice is yours.

From my pont of view, Frequency being able to return to the magicals is a bad thing because there are too many choices for her: be a techno, be a magical, become a spiritual. There should only be two choices if you don't want whichever choice she makes to seem arbitrary and contrived. She wouldn't be any more unique among spirituals than she would be among magicals.

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Quote: See, I don't like the current version of Case. I don't see why Case would be appealing at all, and don't like him as a candidate for an RNPC because I don't see anything interesting in his psychology for the PC to try to affect. I also think that one rival for any RNPCs' affection is enough for the PC to have to compete against. So Freque should either be attracted to Lion or on Case but not both. I think Lion is the better choice if Freque is a techno because it helps unify our setting if some RNPCs are travelling back and forth between the races'settlements (Skew from magicals to technos, Freque from technos to magicals and maybe spirituals.) Case is appealing for his dedication. He is willing to risk everything to win the race (in order to get the one he loves). He always put the one he loves first, and he builds his life around her. However the person that he built his life around is not the one he thought, but Frequency. I never said that Frequency is actracted to Lion. If you see Frequency as a somewhat celebrity, she is the type that that is attracted to the underdogs. This why she is attracted to Case. Case tried so hard but he kept on failing (in his own judgement). Frequency wants to tell him that the love he has been trying to get is right next to him. Case is an RNPC not so much in the sense that the player is supposed to go after him. But that he and Frequency has a bond that can be manipulated. The player can try to strengthen this bond to match Frequency with Case, or the player can break this bond (or prevent this bond from forming) to get Case or Frequency.

We have at maximum 10 slots for RNPCs, we can't waste one on a character that the player is not supposed to go after. If you are not developing Case to be attractive and available to the player, make him a regular NPC. If you definitely want him to be an RNPC, well, I still don't like him, and I have a pretty wide taste in male personalities, any male charater that anyone finds attractive I can generally see somewhat why they think so; if I dislike Case that suggests to me that there's a failure in his design such that the players probably won't be attracted to him.

Looks around wondering where everyone went...

If you're bored, work on your 'review' of our game as you imagine it - I'm curious how youswill differ from mine.

Although speaking of things not happening, I was just noticing that I haven't updated the game design doc in a month because we haven't agreed on and confirmed anything enough to add to it since then. :(

Here's a rough little pic of what Skew might look like. ^_^

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Original post by sunandshadow If you're bored, work on your 'review' of our game as you imagine it - I'm curious how youswill differ from mine. Although speaking of things not happening, I was just noticing that I haven't updated the game design doc in a month because we haven't agreed on and confirmed anything enough to add to it since then. :(

I know what you mean, we all seem extremely stuborn. I still think we should pick a name for the game.

I still like "Frostborn: Ruins of Humanity"

or "Frostborn: Alien Ruins"

just brainstorming. I'm in no way bored but I was just hoping to get some feedback on that long post I made. It also seems that the forum is putting our posts out of order again. I dunno why this keeps happening.

Hmmm...I thought Skew was a guy and I still don't like the odd colored eye thingy. Might be good for symbolism like "Jekyll and Hyde" type of aspect. One eye color represents one part of him and the other eye another.

Lol, you are right, we are stubborn. ;) I don't think the game name is a priority, I wanted to have a lounge thread asking for more suggestions before we voted on them. And then we have the problem that while 'frostborn' is a cool word, we voted to go with the techno/magical cooperation way of getting the player into the world, which I did't think was going to involve cryogenics...

IMO what we most need to come to an agreement about are the three races, and it would be nice if you guys wanted to confirm Skew's description so I could put that in the doc and move on to working on another character. As for the pic, Skew is a feminine looking guy, this first drawing just turned out a bit too feminine-looking. o.O Well, try, try again.

What is it you don't like about odd-colored eyes, anyway? When I was younger I knew a girl with one green eye and one brown eye, and she told me some people did treat her weird because of it; personally I thought they were really unique and interesting. Odd-colored eyes are one of the traditional ways of marking romance heroes or heroines as 'special'; for example Count D from _the anime series _Petshop of Horrors_, one of the anime characters I used as a source image for Skew, has one gold eye and one violet eye. I thought the whole Skewbald coloration including the eyes would work well to make Skew seem to not fit n with either the magicals or the technos, and it's kind of a metaphor for how he tries to defend himself wth a shell of snarkiness but the vulnerability inside shows through sometimes.

I've reported the out-of-order post bug to the staff, but they seem to be ignoring it. >.< It seems to be a problem only on every seventh page though, so it should end when we get to page 29 and not come back until we get to page 35, hopefully.

[Edited by - sunandshadow on November 19, 2004 12:19:25 PM]

Speaking of titles, I was looking at the titles that have been suggested so far, trying to divide them into categories and then fill out those categories with synonyms, so we could show put these word lists in the lounge thread asking for title suggestions to give people ideas. Here's what I came up with; do you think I need to add any categries or I mis-classified anything?



Romance: love, heart, xenophilia, desire, charm, allure, pursue, court, woo, lover, beloved, suitor, beauty

Transformation: caterpillar, butterfly, apotheosis, chrysalis, metamorphosis, birth, rebirth, become, transcend, flower, awaken

Problem: knot, puzzle, conundrum, dilemma, balance, resolve, solution, manipulate, push, influence, rearrange, pattern, key, lock, design, build, attempt, shift, dynamic

Familial relationship: human, child, cousin, descendant, seed, alien, other, foreign, alternative, native, outcast, immigrant, stranger, species, breed, variant, family

Philosophy: ethics, cosmogony, ontology, theory, moral, math, algebra, calculus, aesthetics

Time: future

[Edited by - sunandshadow on November 19, 2004 12:27:24 PM]

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Original post by sunandshadow Lol, you are right, we are stubborn. ;) I don't think the game name is a priority, I wanted to have a lounge thread asking for more suggestions before wevoted on them. And then we have theproblem that while 'frostborn' is a cool word, we voted to go with the techno/magical cooperation way of getting the player into the world, which I did't think was going to involve cryogenics... IMO what we most need to come to an agreement about are the three races, and it would be nice if you guys wanted to confirm Skew's description so I could put that in the doc and move on to working on another character. As for the pic Skew is a feminine looking guy, this first drawing just turned out a bit too feminine-looking. o.O Well, try, try again. What is it you don't like about odd-colored eyes, anyway? When I was younger I knew a girl with one green eye and one brown eye, and she told me some people did treat her weird because of it; personally I thought they were really unique and interesting. Odd-colored eyes are one of the traditional ways of marking romance heroes or heroines as 'special'; for example Count D from _the anime series _Petshop of Horrors_, one of the anime characters I used as a source image for Skew, has one gold eye and one violet eye. I thought the whole Skewbald coloration including the eyes would work well to make Skew seem to not fit n with either the magicals or the technos, and it's kind of a metaphor for how he tries to defend himself wth a shell of snarkiness but the vulnerability inside shows through sometimes. I've reported the out-of-order post bug to the staff, but they seem to be ignoring it. >.< It seems to be a problem only on every seventh page though, so it should end when we get to page 29 and not come back until we get to page 35, hopefully.

Sounds, I was just proposing that we work on the name because we didn't decide on one and I thought it would be good to change subjects an direction to get things swinging again. I guess that Estok, AvatarGod, and Onyxflame are all mia.

Personally I think "Frostborn: " is a cool name but agree with you that it might not fit this game. Cryogenics might be a possibility if we agree that it is possible for some humans to remain in cryo-stasis from before the Apocalypse or whatever it was that made the change. Do you like my last proposal for the backgrounds. I tried to incorporate as much of your idea of how the races split and the evolution that took place.

I personally am ok with it if we use something like it as the background history its a tad bit different than your timeline but I think it would work well.

About Skew...I don't like the colors you chose for the eyes now green and brown are a little better. But violet and gold eye unless there are a lot or some other magicals that have gold eyes or some that have violet eyes. I see this as being to flashy and unique. Unless you want to make every character with some unique feature. But then your pretty much saying that the only way the PC can fit in with the rest is if they are also special in someway. Not everyone can relate to Skew that is why we need a variety of RNPCs and that is why the PC has a choice.

I don't see the different colored eyes as being "traditional ways of marking romance heroes". And personally I don't think it makes them more attractive. I see Skewbald as a character to pitty and nothing more. I don't view him as Romantic or lovable. Some of the stuff you have said about him makes him seem dangerous and unpredictable. I would probably want to get far away from him cause I would see no way to help steer him away from vengance and depression.

Thats my take on Skew...I might have a wrong impression but hopefully it will change as the character descriptions deepen. I think that a woman would probably be intrigued by Skewbald but only a certain type of woman. The type that likes a challenge and a mysterious, hidden, and broken man, someone who needs her emotional care and nuturing. But some woman do not like challanges, or espeically the brokeness. Some woman like a man who is whole and confident. Others like a man that is ruthless and gets what he wants. Still more are attracted to the wayward handsome types those that say all the right words but can't back them up. But every woman is searching for that man who makes her complete the man that never ceases to amaze her and a man who is a gentleman and is rugadly handsome, romantic yet very alive, a sort of balance of everything that that woman is searching for. Now to make a character like that would be a work of art.

I see skew as being mysterious, hidden, and broken. I see him as not to ambitious but dwelling on the past. I see him as wanting the acceptance and emotional support from others but never acknowledging that he actually needs anything. The type of character who would sit down in the middle of a dinner table of a small family and never be noticed or ever utter a word.

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Original post by sunandshadow Speaking of titles, I was looking at the titles that have been suggested so far, trying to divide them into categories and then fill out those categories with synonyms, so we could show put these word lists in the lounge thread asking for title suggestions to give people ideas. Here's what I came up with; do you think I need to add any categries or I mis-classified anything?

Seems good I can't think of anymore at the moment. But umm math, Algebra, and Calculus as a Philosphy ummm their in their own category not Philosophies. They don't try to give someone a set of values by which to live and are more empirical than an actual philosophy. But other than that it is an ok list.

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Original post by 5MinuteGaming Sounds, I was just proposing that we work on the name because we didn't decide on one and I thought it would be good to change subjects an direction to get things swinging again. I guess that Estok, AvatarGod, and Onyxflame are all mia. Personally I think "Frostborn: " is a cool name but agree with you that it might not fit this game. Cryogenics might be a possibility if we agree that it is possible for some humans to remain in cryo-stasis from before the Apocalypse or whatever it was that made the change. Do you like my last proposal for the backgrounds. I tried to incorporate as much of your idea of how the races split and the evolution that took place.

Well I didn't understand what you meant about the tectonic plates. Tectonic plates are huge sections of the earth's crust which each support a whole continent. The smallest known one is India's. Oceanic islands like hawaii and japan are generally not on a tectonic plate at all but are the result of volcanism between the borders of two plates. I think we should just pick an existing, isolated island (Madagascar, perhaps?) on Earth and use the future version of it for our game's geography.

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I personally am ok with it if we use something like it as the background history its a tad bit different than your timeline but I think it would work well. About Skew...I don't like the colors you chose for the eyes now green and brown are a little better. But violet and gold eye unless there are a lot or some other magicals that have gold eyes or some that have violet eyes. I see this as being to flashy and unique. Unless you want to make every character with some unique feature. But then your pretty much saying that the only way the PC can fit in with the rest is if they are also special in someway. Not everyone can relate to Skew that is why we need a variety of RNPCs and that is why the PC has a choice.

Oh yeah, I was definitely intending the other characters to also have various wierd-colored eyes and hair, that's standard for anything illustrated in an anime style. Like lion and kittn ight have cat-pupilled eyes. I think because eyes are the "windows to the soul", charcters who are supposed to be attractive are often given special eyes to show that their sous are special and deserving of being loved. So yes, every RNPC should have some unique feture, except maybe the human one, Leslie, because he/seis kind oflike the boy/girl next door, supposed to represent normality and familiarity.

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I don't see the different colored eyes as being "traditional ways of marking romance heroes". And personally I don't think it makes them more attractive. I see Skewbald as a character to pity and nothing more. I don't view him as Romantic or lovable. Some of the stuff you have said about him makes him seem dangerous and unpredictable. I would probably want to get far away from him cause I would see no way to help steer him away from vengance and depression. Thats my take on Skew...I might have a wrong impression but hopefully it will change as the character descriptions deepen. I think that a woman would probably be intrigued by Skewbald but only a certain type of woman. The type that likes a challenge and a mysterious, hidden, and broken man, someone who needs her emotional care and nuturing. But some woman do not like challanges, or espeically the brokeness. Some woman like a man who is whole and confident. Others like a man that is ruthless and gets what he wants. Still more are attracted to the wayward handsome types those that say all the right words but can't back them up. But every woman is searching for that man who makes her complete the man that never ceases to amaze her and a man who is a gentleman and is rugadly handsome, romantic yet very alive, a sort of balance of everything that that woman is searching for. Now to make a character like that would be a work of art.

This is an excellent point you make. We need to think about what types of charcters are attractive to what types of players. Now, I can guarantee you that Skew will be popular to a big section of our female audience because he's much like Snape, Darcy, and other gothic romantic heroes. Snape has tons of romantic fanfics written about him. I agree that we also need to have a male character who is whole confident, athletic, heroic, etc. - that's what Lion is for. And we should have another who is loyal, kind, shy, etc. It is impossible to create a character who will please everyone because, as you say, everyone wants someone who makes them complete, and since people are different, the kind of people who would complete them are diferent too. I can take care of making sure there's a good variety of male characters if you all can take care of making sure there's a good variety of female characers.

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I see skew as being mysterious, hidden, and broken. I see him as not to ambitious but dwelling on the past. I see him as wanting the acceptance and emotional support from others but never acknowledging that he actually needs anything. The type of character who would sit down in the middle of a dinner table of a small family and never be noticed or ever utter a word.

I think you have described Skew quite well. :) It makes sense that he doesn't appeal to you, but he definitely appeals to me and will to some other players. What kind of character would be most appealing to you?