Quote: Original post by sunandshadow

Quote: Original post by Estok

Quote: Original post by sunandshadow
I would like to put in that I am opposed to technos being able to eat metals because I think any truly non-human abilities like that should be reserved for spirituals.

I can't tell whether I oppose to technos being able to eat metals. It depends on what "eating metal" mean literally. If the techno can chew on an iron bar, I would say no.

Yeah, the tehnos should not be eat chunks of metal, but since they often have metal body parts, but maybe they take vitamin-like 'metal pills' before growing a metal part to give the nanomachines in their bodies the right raw materials.

Agree with this. In addition, I would suggest that the Technos don't have to take pills like they have to. They can eat anything they want and the add-ons will still survive and function. However, the extra ingredients signal different (unique) growth patterns of the add-ons. For example, when the PC implant itself with an add-on, it is the basic, totipotent version. It can become anything depending on what you feed it (what you feed yourself). In other words the implant is a symbiotic parasite (this idea is not new). This fits with an old idea that the PC can cultivate something, and another view that converting into a techno is an on-going process.

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Quote: Another random Frequency idea, because it keeps bothering me that she's too similar to Skew... Maybe Frequency is a born Techno, but because one of hir grandparents or other distant ancestors was a magical, sie is a throw back and was born with wings.

To be honest the idea of technos still freaks me. However, we can make Frequency look like a techno. In other words, the PC is not supposed to find out that she is a magical unless the PC reaches certain subplot. I would hold on to the idea of Frequency being a grandchild of some magicals, because I don't think that that is how techno children come about. The Techno's nonexistent sense of parenthood can be based on how their children come about.

No, I want the technos' children to come about in more-or-less the regular way because that way their lack of parenting comments directly on the way modern urbnites (in reality I mean) often don't want to have children or maintain any family ties. I see the lack of family as a huge, ignored problem in modern society that I want to talk about in the game through contrasting the magicals' large and strong but dictatorial families with the technos free but cold lack of families, and somewhere in there should be an example of a polyamoric family of choice, although I haven't figured out where yet.

This is disappointing but acceptable.

Quote: If the idea of a hermaphrodite character bothers you, just think of her as a boyish girl when you're writing, then change all the pronouns to neuter when you're done. If we decide not to show the characters nude it will never be an issue what exactly is in her pants. And you can use that discomfort with the idea of hermaphrodites to help us characterize Lion - that's how he feels about technos, and it would probably disturb him a bit to learn that a hermaphrodite has a crush on him. You could even put Freque in disquise as a female magical, trying to act feminine to make a good impression on Lion... you can do all sorts of cool things to explore the issue of how to feel about hermaphroditism. That's kind of the whole point of having the technos be hermaphrodites - to give the player this surprising and uncomfortable idea to confront and see if love can overcome our preconcieved ideas about gender. :)

I don't think you get the personality of Frequency. She won't do this: "You could even put Freque in disquise as a female magical, trying to act feminine to make a good impression on Lion...". For me this is crossing the line between surprising and ridicuing the player. This is a comment that I don't want (you might find it amusing to aim for)
Player A, "OMG this game is so cool i am in love with Frequency."
Player B, "Frequency is a dude, dude."
Player A, "WTF?!"
and the 'damn's continues.
Player A, "OMG I am going to tell C to play this."

If this is what it takes to make the game memorable and recommended by the players then let it be.

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Quote: By the way, how do you intend to present BDSM in the actual game? What is the rating of the content?

Well, dealing with romantic themes in a realistic adult way will automatically get us a rating of Teen. Whether that got raised to Mature or not woud depend on how we wanted to portray sex in the game, and whether suicide and murder are possibilities in any of the plot branches. Personally, I don't really care whether we want our romance to be 'sweet' (glossing over the sex scenes) or 'spicy' (portraying the sex sceens with a medium amount of detail). For a book I would definately choose the latter, but in a game it might be very difficult to do sex scenes in non-cheesy ways. What do the rest of you think?

I think that I am more in the 'sex is implied or non-existent' catagory. We can set up intimate and romantic situations that are suggestive to the player but not explicit. Do you think that it is just unsatisfactory?

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Quote: This idea is fine. It changes the situation but nothing is fixed anyway. In the original idea, she did not fly for herself. She was flying for Case. In your idea, can frequency fly with her own wings naturally? Why does she want to enter the race? I accept the idea that Frequency can't fly with her own wings without the add-ons. However, in the original idea, Frequency is not a deficient magical. Her reliance on technology is more emphasized on spiritual value than on functional value. It also gives her a choice that she can be fully magical or fully techno. The idea addressed by Frequency as a character is not "I want to fly, I want to fly away and be free!" but "Why do I fly? What does flying mean to me?"

I am suggesting that when Freque was a young teenager sie got started flying beause sie wanted to fly and be free, but now as the game begins sie is maturing into an adult and questioning whether flying is meaningful.

This is somewhat implied. But at the time the PC knows Frequency she is already in stage 2.

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Quote: The character Frequency is based on a different concept of what spirituals are. In essense, the spirituals are not a race nor a culture. A spiritual is a character in the story that serves to enlighten the player. They are like priests and philosophers in real life, but in the story, they are just normal character who have gain wisdom from their own circumstances. When the player meet these characters and get to know them well, the player should have a sense that they are 'blessed' (not literally, since there is no actual higher power doing the deed) with strong spirits. The player is on a pilgrimage in which he helps the various characters to untie their knots to help them achieve spirituality. This deeper goal of the game is coated by humor and a fun story.

In the dramatica system this is the story role Guardian. The problem is that guardians are typically steadfast characters, but we need al our RNPCs to be changing characters because our PC is steadfast. In other words, our game is about the PC teaching each RNPC something or pushing them to realize something, it is not about the PC being enightened by the RNPCs - like you said, going on a pilgrimage hepng RNPCs untie their knots. Because we are not defining the PCs character, he/she has no initial wrong view from which to be enlightened to the right view. So we can have regular NPCs or even the PC be guardians like you describe, but the RNPCs (including Freque) can't be like that, it doesn't fit the dramatic structure of a game with an uncharacterized PC.

Frequency is not a guardian. Frequency is not steadfast, she is changing (not in terms of her personality but on her view on being unique, being abandoned, justice, love, and trying to comform). The enlightenment is mutual. The player can steer Frequency into different ends. The player has to untie their knots to allow them to become spirituals, at the same time hopefully the player will also appreciate and be inspired by the story. It is just a little misunderstanding.

Quote: I wanted it to be a distant ancestor rather than an immediate ancestor so there is more of a sense the Freque's magical wings are surprising, freaky, a throwback, a hint that no matter how much sie tries people aren't going to see hir as a normal techno.

The major resistance here is that Frequency would be a techno doing it this way. Another resistance again, is that Frequency can very well go back to the magicals because she is a normal magical. And that highlight the sense that she is only unique in the techno eyes, if she goes back there is nothing special about her.

Quote: See, I don't like the current version of Case. I don't see why Case would be appealing at all, and don't like him as a candidate for an RNPC because I don't see anything interesting in his psychology for the PC to try to affect. I also think that one rival for any RNPCs' affection is enough for the PC to have to compete against. So Freque should either be attracted to Lion or on Case but not both. I think Lion is the better choice if Freque is a techno because it helps unify our setting if some RNPCs are travelling back and forth between the races'settlements (Skew from magicals to technos, Freque from technos to magicals and maybe spirituals.)

Case is appealing for his dedication. He is willing to risk everything to win the race (in order to get the one he loves). He always put the one he loves first, and he builds his life around her. However the person that he built his life around is not the one he thought, but Frequency. I never said that Frequency is actracted to Lion. If you see Frequency as a somewhat celebrity, she is the type that that is attracted to the underdogs. This why she is attracted to Case. Case tried so hard but he kept on failing (in his own judgement). Frequency wants to tell him that the love he has been trying to get is right next to him.

Case is an RNPC not so much in the sense that the player is supposed to go after him. But that he and Frequency has a bond that can be manipulated. The player can try to strengthen this bond to match Frequency with Case, or the player can break this bond (or prevent this bond from forming) to get Case or Frequency.



Edit - fixed quoting

[Edited by - sunandshadow on November 17, 2004 12:58:41 PM]

Quote: Original post by Estok
I don't see how spirituality implies the existence of a higher power. I am not talking about a higher power. I don't see how the last two questions apply to what I posted.

When you say that evil is the absence of good, what kind of things can the value of 'good' be assigned to? Can you assign goodneess to any objects? Can you assign goodness to any decisions? Can you assign goodness to any motivation?

If you can assign goodness to a motivation, and decision, how would you assign a goodness value to a decision that is made based on a good motivation and a evil motivation at the same time?

The last too questions where in anticipation of your response to me stating that Spirituality does in fact imply a high power. Obviously you cannot grasp my concept of spirituality but only let me say that it does indeed imply a high power. Not in any sense that you know it though so I will conceed that point.

As to your questions, in the world there is only a choice of lesser evils. Everything in the world is good and has no other choice. Such as the earth suddenly does not change its rotation around the sun or plants suddenly uproot themselves and walk around talking and killing. The only being capable of commiting evil is the human person. We were given the choice of whether to follow and do good things or to do what we are tempted to do. You know that the human mind can concieve of practically anything, for instance, our technology shows us the ability of our mind unlike any other animal. In this way we were given command over everything in the world. Take the Atomic bomb we would not have been able to create such a destructive weapon had it not been for our intellect and we would not have been able to use it where it not for our choice to do good or evil we would have simply down what we were made to do.

Since I believe in a high power simply because the world around us cannot exist if there isn't something or someone driving every force or keeping everything within its law. Your questions are about the definition of goodness and of evil.

Yes spirituality has to do with a persons own self but if you acknowledge what I said above as being accurate in a way then spirituality is about the soul and the soul is something immortal and not within this world therefore those who have souls are not tied to the laws of this world. And spirituality is also about a persons connection to their soul and my soul is part of something and that something is supernatural. Now what that something is I don't know but I call that something God. That and what I call God also created and continues to control this world. So to me spirituality implies being whole with all the pieces of ones self including mind, body, and soul. And my soul is part of the entity that I call God who is a higher power in this universe which it/he/she (God) created.

Quote: Original post by Estok
In my view the Techno should not have obvious metallic parts. They should not look like they are in armor, or have cables attached to them. They shouldn't look like half human half machine.

I agree with you on making the parts less obvious but not to the point where the player can't tell that he is part metal. I envision these parts not like a robot but more of exactly shaped the way their bodies are except for it being metalic looking. But definitely there shouldn't be massive amounts of metal and looking like their wearing a suit of armor.

Quote: I have an example of another original idea for Techno. The following is based on the definition of existence. It is suppposed to make the player wonder whether the Techno race is considered dead or alive. We can make the Techno to be an implementation of a ghost world. The minds of the Technos reside outside their avatars. The basis behind this is technology, and the player learns deeper, the player might start question to what extent these avatars present the will of the actual minds, and to what extent these minds are not altered or created by the system. What is the notion of 'self-ness' in this system? Are the Technos just agents of a huge machine? Do they qualify to be alive?

It sounds way too much like the matrix and the borg to be original. A bunch of bodies running around doing things while their actual minds are in a computer system. And then your philosphical question of 'self-ness' the matrix tackled that one in the first movie. "This can't be..." "What real...what is reality...how do you define reality. If you define reality...then reality is nothing more than electrical signals iterpreted by your brain."

What is your definition of alive? What is your definition of 'self-ness'?

Regarding good...

Good is usually recognized as a positivity (as is, say, existence), while evil is simply the lack of good (as is non-existence). Granted, it's under debate (mainly because of the religious problem of evil), but that seems to be accepted by most philosophers.

Here's a random idea for how techno shops and items might work. since technos don't have a capitalist economy or money, and instead have the ability to synthesize any desired object, we can't use scarcity to keep the PC from immediately acquiring all objects, and it would't make any sense to have lots of shops with different selections of items. Instead, let's have a staandard item synthesizing machine, and the PC will have to find the code/program for any item he/she wants to synthesize and enter it into the machine. These codes will be scattered around the techno city (in logical places, not random ones, for example a painter techno would have codes for making paint) and the PC will collect them as he/she explores the city and interacts with the NPCs. There may even be some old codes that have wandered into the spirituals' museam...

Quote: Original post by 5MinuteGaming

Quote: I have an example of another original idea for Techno. The following is based on the definition of existence. It is suppposed to make the player wonder whether the Techno race is considered dead or alive. We can make the Techno to be an implementation of a ghost world. The minds of the Technos reside outside their avatars. The basis behind this is technology, and the player learns deeper, the player might start question to what extent these avatars present the will of the actual minds, and to what extent these minds are not altered or created by the system. What is the notion of 'self-ness' in this system? Are the Technos just agents of a huge machine? Do they qualify to be alive?

It sounds way too much like the matrix and the borg to be original. A bunch of bodies running around doing things while their actual minds are in a computer system. And then your philosphical question of 'self-ness' the matrix tackled that one in the first movie. "This can't be..." "What real...what is reality...how do you define reality. If you define reality...then reality is nothing more than electrical signals iterpreted by your brain."

If you don't read close enough it will sound like matrix. But my example has nothing to do with virtual reality. And it is not a question on reality. The situation more closely resemble the sixth day. The Sixth Day is about human cloning, in which the mind (memories and thoughts) is also copied. You should be able to see a connection between this idea and what you have said about souls. In your previous post:

Quote: Yes spirituality has to do with a persons own self but if you acknowledge what I said above as being accurate in a way then spirituality is about the soul and the soul is something immortal and not within this world therefore those who have souls are not tied to the laws of this world. And spirituality is also about a persons connection to their soul and my soul is part of something and that something is supernatural. Now what that something is I don't know but I call that something God. That and what I call God also created and continues to control this world. So to me spirituality implies being whole with all the pieces of ones self including mind, body, and soul. And my soul is part of the entity that I call God who is a higher power in this universe which it/he/she (God) created.

The two are almost identical, except in my version except that the system is not a higher power.

I have a different view of what immortality and spirituality mean. In a nutshell, it is the will of people that lives on (not in the sense that there are ghosts.) When you look at heros and legends of different cultures, there is something common that they are remembered for. Most of the time, tthey are remembered for their courage, sacrifice, vision, and determination. These are the 'spirits' that they exhibited during their life time, and lived on in the lives of others after they died. Their spirits are immortal as long as people in the culture is inspired by them and value them.

Quote: What is your definition of alive? What is your definition of 'self-ness'?

Most peole have a subjective view of what the self is. However, the situation is presented with you being the third person, the observer. The observer is placed in a position to decide whether the observed is alive and has a 'self'. I don't have a definition of aliveness nor an objective judgement for 'selfness'. It is the same type of question about the C word, on 'how do you tell that something has a conscious?' However, in terms of the game the player is not forced to give an answer. For example, we can set up the thoughts for the player to wake up one morning, as he looks at his partner (RNPC) he wonders what it is about the RNPC that makes her her.

Supose your spouse died. But technology allows you to resurrect her. After she was resurrected, part of you think that she is alive, and part of you think that she is dead. When you look into her eyes, you wonder who she is that you are looking at.

Quote: Original post by sunandshadow
Here's a random idea for how techno shops and items might work. since technos don't have a capitalist economy or money, and instead have the ability to synthesize any desired object, we can't use scarcity to keep the PC from immediately acquiring all objects, and it would't make any sense to have lots of shops with different selections of items. Instead, let's have a staandard item synthesizing machine, and the PC will have to find the code/program for any item he/she wants to synthesize and enter it into the machine. These codes will be scattered around the techno city (in logical places, not random ones, for example a painter techno would have codes for making paint) and the PC will collect them as he/she explores the city and interacts with the NPCs. There may even be some old codes that have wandered into the spirituals' museam...

Thats sounds doable...How exactly is the machine going to create these objects I mean it takes matter manipulation for that kind of machinery so does the PC have to find a certain number of materials or matter with a certain type of element in it in order to create the item. For instance if you wanted a new coat you'd have to give it a barrel of cotton, wool, silk, or polymers.

Quote: Original post by 5MinuteGaming

Quote: Original post by sunandshadow
Here's a random idea for how techno shops and items might work. since technos don't have a capitalist economy or money, and instead have the ability to synthesize any desired object, we can't use scarcity to keep the PC from immediately acquiring all objects, and it would't make any sense to have lots of shops with different selections of items. Instead, let's have a staandard item synthesizing machine, and the PC will have to find the code/program for any item he/she wants to synthesize and enter it into the machine. These codes will be scattered around the techno city (in logical places, not random ones, for example a painter techno would have codes for making paint) and the PC will collect them as he/she explores the city and interacts with the NPCs. There may even be some old codes that have wandered into the spirituals' museam...

Thats sounds doable...How exactly is the machine going to create these objects I mean it takes matter manipulation for that kind of machinery so does the PC have to find a certain number of materials or matter with a certain type of element in it in order to create the item. For instance if you wanted a new coat you'd have to give it a barrel of cotton, wool, silk, or polymers.

No the PC doesn't have to gather materials - the city has a large resevoir of energy it uses to synthesize matter (e=mc^2) to make items for all the technos, and any items or waste get converted back into energy. Some is lost to entropy of course, but they can make that up with solar panels or geothermal energy or somethng like that.

The PC does however have to gather materials and money to get magicals to craft items for him/her.

So the Technos would have reached a point where their technology could manipulate energy back into matter. Cause in all forms that we have discovered once matter is converted into energy. Really its just the energy from bonds within the Nucleus of an atom not the protons, netrons, or electrons that get converted into energy. So it would still take matter to work. The machine would have to break down matter into protons, nuetrons, and electrons and then use a massive and when I say massive I mean massive amount of energy to put the nucleus together to form the desired element. And then the machine would have to know how to form the chemical bonds and put those together which could take much more energy. It is possible that they have found a way to do this but what would it say about the Technos as a race if they were able to. It would definitely suggest that the Technos have had a ton of scientific geniuses or through the use of cybernetic implants and nano tehcnologies were able to comprehend and imagine more thus offering more discoveries. But then wouldn't the Technos be discovering new technologies all the time during the game or wouldn't they have already killed themselves with war. If they can create enough energy to put together an atom and of course keep that energy centralized possibly using a blackhole type of theorey which would further imply that they could manipulate gravity which could be pretty cool for a city. Like say particular parts of the city you actually walk on the ceiling within a building and rooms and elevators go off in any direction. Of course only within the building. They could also have anti-gravity transportation. But what would that say about their space travel. Is it possible that you could target the center of gravity for a planet and somehow pull yourself to it. For instance we all feel the pull of gravity from the sun but aren't up rooted from where we are and drawn toward it because of the earths gravity and our proximity to such a large force. Now if you could control that hm. Anyway could the Technos leave earth and if so why haven't they.

What do you guys think?

Sunandshadow said I was invited to make some characters, so I decided to give it a shot. This is based on what I know from the thread, but that isn't much, since this thread it so big. So, I'll give you guys the option of editing and changing the character at your discretion.

Alchemy is the bastard son of a Techno girl and a magical. He was taught science well by his grandfather, who was something of a father figure to him. When he got older, he began to mix science and magic to create powerful new inventions. Even though he was half Magical, he came to have a prejudice against Magicals. This mostly comes from his grandfather and mother, who came to loathe Magicals after the abandonment of Alchemy and his mother.

Alchemy could be a dynamic character because this leaves open a few options. If Alchemy's father was a villain, that could be incentive for him to join the "good guys." If one of the "good guys" was a magical, it could lead to a bitter rivalry and, eventually, to the understanding that he shouldn't hold a grudge against all Magicals based on the actions of his father. Since he mixes magic and science, he could use magical items and technology he gets from defeated foes to combine it into powerful weapons he could use against them.

I hope this fits well with the current storyline. Feel free to crop as needed.