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Original post by 5MinuteGaming Quote: Original post by sunandshadow [...] why don't you each create a character to portray one type of love that you'd like to teach the player about? I think that is a great idea!

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Original post by 5MinuteGaming Haven't the slightest clue as to what you want for 'type of love'. Do you want something about how their going to show love or what type of love that they portray. As far as race goes it doesn't really matter though by the name it can't be human and since I don't know which race I am imagining for my character I don't exactly know what gender but I know that it will most likely have female charactersitics. I don't think we should bother building up characters just yet, of course you can keep brainstorming on them but I don't think that we should make definitive characters till we have all the logistics down.

*blink* What made you change your mind? Anyway, for me personally I create the logistics to support the cast of characters and the story I want to tell with them, so it's easier for me to brainstorm about individual characters before I decide for certain how many there should be and other logistical details.

As for what type of love, I thought I explained that? "how their going to show love or what type of love that they portray," aren't those the same thing? We made a list up in the last few posts of the kids of love that there are. You specifically said you want to portray selfless love, well, why don't you create a character who is selflessly loving?

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What we need is a complete specification document where it outlines how many characters the setting bits and pieces of gameplay and storyline. The begins of an adventure tree. That sort of thing. I will list a few things which we should include. Spec List: -Setting --History --details -Plot --ideas --proposals --themes -Timeline of story and events that could occur (could be structured like a tree) --past events to the end or beyond the end of the story --structured by human dates starting at first major event --different time line could be possible -Adventure Map (tree with a top node for the characters) --list of characters ---Name/Sex/Location ---History ---Characteristics ---Features(visual) -Concepts (drawings and writen) --art --items --conversations I'll make up a document and add these things and add subtitles and descriptions of what should be put in each of these subheadings and we will just fill things in and add new things as we develop it and refine it. The document itself will also be able to be added too as we need.

Go ahead and put the document together if you want, but I won't be able to help you on much except for themes because I can't work on history until I've got the plot roughed out, and I can't work on plot until I know some of the themes and characters.

Well, I guess I wasn't really thinking about what you meant. I was confused by it because you only said 'type of love' for one person and love really comes on an individual relationship basis so until we have the inter relational character tree worked out I don't think that we can pin a character down to one individual 'type of love'. Being full of selfless love or other 'types' of love is really a characteristic of the individual character such as 'loving' 'kind' 'mature' 'wise' etc.

Name: Mivonistova
Race: (Spiritual)<<insert race name>>
Gender: asexual
Characteristics: 'selfless' 'wise' 'mysterious'
Primary Story Role: ?

As far as the document goes we will work on it a little at a time in any order that is right for you. I personal like to chew away at the whole of the story by creating bits and pieces of this new universe in my head and translating the ideas to paper or computer to keep track of them. But however we do it I think a story design document would help.

Okay, let's start nibbling away at the story design doc then. Just tell me what you want me to do - try to generate ideas about a particular subject, or critque what you put together, or whtever.

lol all three of us use different method for story creation.

To me it doesn't make any sense to create a character without a purpose. A single character is not enough to describe one type of love anyway, it usually takes two or more characters to have a relationship. In your design of character skew, there are a lot of assumptions about the settings and plots that are not confirmed.

How about these questions for the design document:

do we want the main character be in a team? or is the main character mostly by itself? Do we want the main character be able to join different teams?

how much fighting do we want? what type of fighting (assassin, military, law enforcement, duel)? Do we want to show blood? Do we want a scaled-downed form of competition such as sport, code breaking, or investigation?

how do we want to present the world? do we want to present a multilayer world? do we want to present the player a superficial layer of the world, leaving the inner one to be discovered? how much do we want the player to doubt the surroundings and information? How much contracdition do we want? How much do we want the player to think? How do we want the player to think (philosophical? logical? experimental base on experience)? What type of problems do we want the players to solve?

how much romance? (romance was optional in the original design doc)

About romance:
If we want a plot based on romance, we are basically asking this question:

If you were to show one aspect of love in the game, what would you show?

For 5minutegaming, the answer is more precise. For example, he might say, "selfless love." Then, the plot might prompt some of these questions, "what is selfless love?", "does everyone capable of selfless love?", "can anyone express selfless love?", "can selfless love be selfish?", "is selfless love always good?", "how is selfless love expressed?", "can selfless love expressed in a selfish way?", "what causes someone to express selfless love?", "how does selfless love differ from other types of love?", "what type of love differ from selfless love the most?" ...

My impression is that we probably won't get into any questions above. It seems that we are very firm on what each type of love means and their implications. Based on how Sunandshadow design the story, it seems that we want to limit the scope to situational and relational conflicts. The questions involved probably are like these, "how do I get A on my side?", "how do I make B love C?" "should I trust D?" "Who should I choose between E and F?"


Character Example:
This is a similar character to compare with skew.

Type of Love: Admiration/loyalty/submission
Name: Haku (from anime Naruto)
Story Role: Minor Villain
Race: human with bloodline limit ability (aka a mutant)
Gender: Male

Appearance: teenager boy, feminine appearance and built, long black hair, masked, and wear robes; easily mistaken as a girl.

Personality: kind, polite, well-mannered, compassionate, loyal, very determined to serve the master villain. When he was a child he was being hunt down because of his bloodline, which was seen as a threat to society. His father killed his mother after uncovering her bloodline, and he killed his father in defense. He lived as a child beggar until a villain values the power of his bloodline ability. His reason of existence is to make the dream of his master come true. He has the will to kill anyone who hinders or disrepects his master, but otherwise he is very kind. He loves his master in a somewhat homosexual way.

Abilities: water, snow, ice manipulations, needle throwing, healing using herbs and needles, forming seals (casting spells) with one hand, devising counters for enemies' techniques. His abilities exceed those of his master.

Purpose: To contrast the goal of the main character (they are both fighting for a dream, what makes them different? Is one dream more noble than the other?) and to question the meaning of a ninja (is a ninja just a tool?).

Estok - I really like it when you ask me questions like this, it helps me figure out what I think, lol. I bet if you asked questions like this about my developer journal I'd have a textbook in no time. ;)

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Original post by Estok lol all three of us use different method for story creation. To me it doesn't make any sense to create a character without a purpose. A single character is not enough to describe one type of love anyway, it usually takes two or more characters to have a relationship. In your design of character skew, there are a lot of assumptions about the settings and plots that are not confirmed.

It does take two to tango, but the second character is the PC. So we can give the romantic object characters either an initial wrong focus for their type of love, or no focus, and then the player's strategic choices will determine what the PC's character is, and how far in which direction his/her relationship with each NPC progresses, e.g. friends, best friends, casual lovers, committed lovers, dislike each other, or hate each other.

Type of love is how these options are restricted and instantiated: 5minutegaming's character, for example, being asexual would not be available for the lover type relationships. Skew otoh, being passionate and a villain, would not be available for the friend relationships, the only way to win his goodwill would be to become his lover first.

As for unconfirmed setting and plot assumptions, we should make a list of these and then go through and confirm or deny the ones we can.

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How about these questions for the design document: do we want the main character be in a team? or is the main character mostly by itself? Do we want the main character be able to join different teams?

I was thinking one main character, either by him/herself or with up to two sidekicks. The player would have the option to defect to the villain's side (either major or minor) if they cultivated a good relationship with that villain.

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how much fighting do we want? what type of fighting (assassin, military, law enforcement, duel)? Do we want to show blood? Do we want a scaled-downed form of competition such as sport, code breaking, or investigation?

My favorite kind of fighting is realtime sword/fist/magic fights requiring timing and button combos (on a gamepad). Examples are Vagrant Story, Mortal Kombat, Golden Axe, etc. But I am open to other kinds of fighting or no fighting. The only kinds I don't really like are assassin and blow-'em-away (would be okay to put in a mini-game though.)

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how do we want to present the world? do we want to present a multilayer world? do we want to present the player a superficial layer of the world, leaving the inner one to be discovered? how much do we want the player to doubt the surroundings and information? How much contradiction do we want? How much do we want the player to think? How do we want the player to think (philosophical? logical? experimental base on experience)? What type of problems do we want the players to solve?

Initially the PC will be confronted with a fantastic, unfamiliar world and its inhabitants, and be mystified by how this world is related to Earth and how its society and technology/magic function. Through dialogue with NPCs and adventure game style exploration the PC will learn how to act within the society (dialogue puzzles and plot action choices) and manipulate the technology/magic within the world (combat, puzzles, mini-games), and a little bit of history to explain how this world is related to Earth.

So the player's mode of thought is mainly strategic/manipulative using logic, that's for the gameplay segments, but the story segments are philosophical/emotional, examining the moral/ethical significance of the player's strategic choices as they effect the lives and hearts of the NPCs.

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how much romance? (romance was optional in the original design doc)

Defining 'optional romance' - optional means the player cannot accidently get into a romantic relationship in the game, any such relationship must be earned. But romance is definitely not optional in terms of the game design, we have to put a lot of it in there.

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About romance: If we want a plot based on romance, we are basically asking this question: If you were to show one aspect of love in the game, what would you show? For 5minutegaming, the answer is more precise. For example, he might say, "selfless love." Then, the plot might prompt some of these questions, "what is selfless love?", "does everyone capable of selfless love?", "can anyone express selfless love?", "can selfless love be selfish?", "is selfless love always good?", "how is selfless love expressed?", "can selfless love expressed in a selfish way?", "what causes someone to express selfless love?", "how does selfless love differ from other types of love?", "what type of love differ from selfless love the most?" ... My impression is that we probably won't get into any questions above. It seems that we are very firm on what each type of love means and their implications. Based on how Sunandshadow design the story, it seems that we want to limit the scope to situational and relational conflicts. The questions involved probably are like these, "how do I get A on my side?", "how do I make B love C?" "should I trust D?" "Who should I choose between E and F?"

No, I want to get into the philosophical questions, that's the whle point of having deep characters. The second batch of questions are the ones the player decides strategically, the first batch are the ones explored in each NPC's subplot in a more didactic and less strategic way.


All of this is just what I have been subconsciously assuming, and I'm happy to listen if you have different ideas.



Edit: Here's an idea - maybe we should have three races: Spiritual Asexual (of which there would be only a few characters, some extremely old), Technological Hermaphroditic, and Magical Male/Female. So 5minutegaming's character would be a Spiritual, but Skew would be a Magical. Maybe a Spiritual would be what one matures into after mastering both technology and magic? So the player couldn't become one in the first game, but maybe in the game+?


Another Edit: The plot choices the player must make to 'win' each NPC should have to do with the type of live being examined, for example since 5minutegming's character is selfless love maybe the player would have to take some sort of self-sacrificial action to win them.

[Edited by - sunandshadow on September 21, 2004 12:19:41 AM]

I have returned!!!! [grin]

Sorry about that guys I was without internet for a while there and just got a chance to check the forums again. Its too bad that I've fallen out of the loop on this one while I was away, but if you guys want me to work on anything (ie. plot, characters, etc.) let me know.

I would really love to get back into this if at all possible so hopefully I can.

I'm going to take a deeper look into this before I post any more suggestions or anything like that.

Talk to you all later.

Welcome back Terlenth, the more the merrier! :)


I was thinking about what kind of characters our current setting and plot ideas imply, so I'm going to toss out a few here, feel free to claim one or suggest chages to any of them.


Type of Love: Lust/Casual Sex
Name:
Story Role: The guy on the 'good' side who has bad ethics
Race: Magical
Gender: Male

Appearance: A jock: tall, broad shoulders, muscles, hair shoulder length or shorter, masculine jaw shape, handsome. Maybe lion-like.

Personality:
He is cocky, arogant, and charismatic. Chummy or flirtatious with anyone he likes, he is a bully to anyone who doesn't fit his idea of what a person should be (Skew, Technos). He is largely lacking in philosophy, ethics, empathy, and the ability to look at things from someone else's point of view, as exemplified by his various prejudices and the fact that he doesn't value other people enough to want to have a deep relationship with one. If the PC joined the villain's side, this character would then be his new enemy. If this character's sub-plot went really badly I could see him becoming a rapist or a leader of a fascist movement, but if it went well he would realize that other people have real feelings too and would become more caring and thoughtful, ready to try a deeper relationship.

Abilities: Physical combat and physical magic. Perhaps he's always been bad at healing spells but if he has his epiphany about caring for other people he will suddenly become better at them because now he actually cares about the other person's pain and wants them to feel better.

Purposes: He exemplifies masculinity in the game, how it can be destructive or consructive.



Type of Love: Friendly
Name:
Story Role: Sidekick/Helper
Race:
Gender: Anything other than male

Appearance: Cute, big sparkling eyes, maybe looks like an angel whose appearance especially wing color could change to refect how their plot was going: white/silver metal for innocence, black/tarnished metal for loss of innocence, gold and gem colors for maturity.

Personality: Bouncy and vivacious, this character loves people and is friendly to everyone. She, zie, or it is naive about the fact that people can be mean and evil, and is not very responsible, organized, or purposeful. If this character's subplot went badly they could end up used, abused, or emotionally broken by the evils they had seen, but if it went well they would become more mature and steady, emotionally supporting the other characters, exemplifying loyalty, and adoring their leader.

Abilities: Maybe something involving tinkering, luck, charm, quickness...

Purpose: This childlike character shows that innocence can be a strength or a weakness.

[Edited by - sunandshadow on September 24, 2004 5:12:01 PM]

some more questions:

If there is fighting, what are they fighting against? What is the reason of the fightings? What do the fighting represent? What is the relation between the villains and the protagonists? Why are the fightings done by the player? Are there many others who have to fight the same villain? Whom do the villain affect? Why is the villain important? Important to whom? For whom or what is the player fighting? What is the goal of the player? What is the goal of the villain?


For the philosophical side:

The original design document stated that we want a story that will make the player think even after playing the game. Therefore, the primary goals of this game story is to provoke thought and to entertain.

If you were to provoke the player to think about one subject, what would that subject be? What question would you want the player to think about?

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Original post by Estok some more questions: If there is fighting, what are they fighting against? What is the reason of the fightings? What do the fighting represent? What is the relation between the villains and the protagonists? Why are the fightings done by the player? Are there many others who have to fight the same villain? Whom do the villain affect? Why is the villain important? Important to whom? For whom or what is the player fighting? What is the goal of the player? What is the goal of the villain?

Oh man, these are hard questions. I can't answer them all because some have to be answered in terms of plot, which I am going to mostly leave to others because hopefully you're better at it than I am. ;)

Let me see which ones I can answer though...

The protagonist is revived/summoned/brought into this world into the middle of an existing coflict, in which he/she is a valuable pawn for some ability of his/hers, probably having to do with being a human, and maybe because he/she is able to learn both magic and technological skills and combine them, possibly becoming a spiritual. So the PC is basically fighting for the right to decide his/her own fate rather than be used by one faction of another.

The villains are the villains because at the start of the game they try to use the PC to further their agenda, with no concern for him/her as a person. The good guys are the good guys because they interfere with this plan and don't immediately have a way they want to use the PC, and they're just plain more friendly, at least at the start. The villains are mainly technos (plus Skew) while the good guys are mainly magicals (plus a spiritual perhaps). So the main conflict probably has to do with the techno mindset and ambitions vs. the magical mindset and prejudices, while the spiriuals are just mysteriously in the background interfering occasionally. This would fit with the idea that the player has to mediate between these two cultures, possibly matchmakering a relationship between a magical and a techno.

Thisis certainlynot the onlyway we could set it up, just the first way that occurs to me. Maybe one of you can think of something better which creates a nice suspenseful overall plot.

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Original post by Estok For the philosophical side: The original design document stated that we want a story that will make the player think even after playing the game. Therefore, the primary goals of this game story is to provoke thought and to entertain. If you were to provoke the player to think about one subject, what would that subject be? What question would you want the player to think about?

Well for me personally the most important question is the ethics of relationships, but that's probably not the same for you guys, so you'll have to answer this question too. Fortunately an RPG has room for exploring more than one big question. :)