quote: Original post by Vetinari

Stripped down or not, I still stand by my post. In my opinion an OS (no matter how large) is unnescessay complication which only gives more room for bugs, stress, devolpment time, and speed issues. Can anyone tell me the advantages of one for a console? To my knowledge, no console has previously had one...

Mike

They do, but they are proprietary ones. Thus you are able to boot the CD-Based consoles without a game or stick in an AudioCD and you''ll see the result of that --> An AudioCD Player. It''s in ROM, but the system''s API''s are based on something. Thus an OS that allows for the hardware access with an API layer over it. You can''t boot it up and program (thus SDK''s with high end machines), but it''s there.


BeS
It's Da BOMB Baby!!!

quote:
Stripped down or not, I still stand by my post. In my opinion an OS (no matter how large) is unnescessay complication which only gives more room for bugs, stress, devolpment time, and speed issues. Can anyone tell me the advantages of one for a console? To my knowledge, no console has previously had one...

Hmmm... well, DirectX has to run on SOMETHING doesn''t it? I mean, DOS could be considered an OS right? What does an OS really have to be to be an OS? It''s just an app layer progs can run off of. And since DirectX needs something, I''m sure MS isn''t gonna waste the time designing a new "OS" just for the XBox, so a bare-bones Windows kernel would suffice. yes? no?

And as for patched, I personally haven''t had much trouble with them. Although I do see your point, SkyDruid. I don''t think MS should allow patches. If they do, their console games will just go the way of the PC - developers will release games on time ready or not with the philosophy of "oh, we can fix it later". DARRRRRR....... *SCHMAK*

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\\// live long and prosper; \||/ die short and rot.
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Eeuuh... I think I''ve read that MS will not put an OS in the XBox, but it will be put on the CDs (or whatever medium) you insert in it.

Forgive me if I''m wrong; I''m not an XBox XPert ;-)

Greetings, CondorWitte

Consoles up to the Playstation and Saturn have not had OS''s really, just a bios. The SNES and Genesis were programmed completely in ASM as far as I know, and all there was was the bios. The PS had the bios plus a driver layer for the API to run off of, and that was it. The Dreamcast now still has the bios, which you see when theres no CD in the machine, and a proprietary OS (or that WinCE offshoot) loaded from the CD''s, but it''s still very small.

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- outRider -

One great reason not to buy any PSX crap is because Sony is a piece of crap company and everyone should boycott them. Check out www.slashdot.org for the info (you''ll have to look around as the story is a couple of days old) but basically they said they''re going to help out the music industry by developing software and methods of firewalling napster wherever possible: at the napster server all the way on down to the user''s computer. Granted this is a completely impossible claim and just makes them look even more stupid than they already are, but any company retarded enough to make a statement like that AND produce crappy products that break alot needs to be boycotted.

Hey, I''ve heard from several sources that a lot of developers are working on X-box titles, with the Nintendo Gamecube as second choice, (appently the PS2 is too difficult (read: not cost effective) to develop for unless you''re a huge company that can afford the inital time/skills outlay.

As for the X-box being Win-with-DirectX-Compatible, it''s not going to be, (''ol Bill was quite concerned by this in a meeting). The Directx compatibility is only code-deep, not platform based (much like the dreamcast).

As for saying OS''s are bad for consoles, how many games has the pc got compared to any console? If we all had to code memory and process management functionality for each title, you lose development time on something the console manufacturers can do much better than you. Now, say we stick this OS on a ROM chip in the console, BANG, we no longer have an OS, but a useful set of BIOS functions, aka. the SNES and PSX.

Hey, just my thoughts on the subject.

(X-Box source: EDGE issue #88, interview with Seamus Blackley)

Ok people, the last thing we need here are more rumors. So let''s get straight to the nuts & bolts of the subject. According to the OFFICIAL Microsoft Xbox website, as well as the Microsoft booth at the GDC; The Xbox will be running a trimmed down version of Windows 2000 and DirectX 8 or 9.

To Question #1: "Why would anyone want to buy a system so you can run the same exact DirectX programs on the same OS and not spend oodles and oodles of cash for it?"

This has a fairly simple answer. The Nvidia Geforce cards and all the new Geforce want to be cards are not going to be in every home. There for developers creating games for the PC will have to scale down parts of their game''s in order to make way for people with slower processors, and bad video cards. Most of the time the scaling process is bad for high end users and great for low end users. The Xbox will have a standard set of hardware that developers can program for. They don''t have to worry about if billy joe bob has MMX instructions. Taking this into account the developers can take things for granted and make a game that will run alot better on an Xbox than it will on your home PC.

Onto issue #2: "Stripped down or not, I still stand by my post. In my opinion an OS (no matter how large) is unnescessay complication which only gives more room for bugs, stress, devolpment time, and speed issues. Can anyone tell me the advantages of one for a console? To my knowledge, no console has previously had one..."

Most bugs associated with the Windows operating system can be narrowed down to the incredible ammount of hardware it supports. There are 50 billion parts that are x86 compatible, and not everyone makes quality drivers that work with windows correctly. With the Xbox that will not happen, the system is standardized this will solve 100% of issues related to that. As for no consoles having OS''s previously. That''s incorrect. Dreamcast is a perfect example. These OS''s are normaly hidden from the user and they never see them but they are there.

Like it or not Microsoft has entered into the Console arena. It could give the current console companies the kick in the nuts that they''ve needed. Nintendo, Sega and Sony have monopolized their little consoles, stopping retailers from lowering prices until they say so. Sony takes $10 off each Playstation sale as payment from the developer. On a $50 game that''s 20% profit!!!! Sega and Nintendo have restricted development kits to developers they feel as "Professional". It''s about time some one did something to let great start up developers get into the console arena.

Alright, sorry the Dreamcast does have an OS, I didn''t know. The rest have BIOSes or something, whatever. My main point is that my money is saying that MS will add extra ''features'' to it''s OS, that we havn''t seen previously in consoles.

quote:
As for the X-box being Win-with-DirectX-Compatible, it''s not going to be, (''ol Bill was quite concerned by this in a meeting). The Directx compatibility is only code-deep, not platform based (much like the dreamcast).

What do you mean by this?

quote:
One great reason not to buy any PSX crap is because Sony is a piece of crap company and everyone should boycott them...

That was one guy, and he''s obviously a complete retard. Sony has issued many statements denying everything he said.

quote:
Most bugs associated with the Windows operating system can be narrowed down to the incredible ammount of hardware it supports. There are 50 billion parts that are x86 compatible, and not everyone makes quality drivers that work with windows correctly.

Please tell me you don''t really believe this. Even if you do, how does this explain the crappy security/memory leaks/etc. I would say most of the problems of windows is the time/money spent to add ''features'' like a fading-in start menu. Mabye I should start blaming my bugs on my hardware...

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Nintendo, Sega and Sony have monopolized their little consoles, stopping retailers from lowering prices until they say so. Sony takes $10 off each Playstation sale as payment from the developer. On a $50 game that''s 20% profit!!!!

Yes, this is how they make money. Each console is sold at a loss, so they need to make up for it somewhere. Most likely, MS will sell XBox at loss also and have a similar scheme. I can''t believe you are comparing the greed of companies like nintendo to that of MS.

quote:
Sega and Nintendo have restricted development kits to developers they feel as "Professional". It''s about time some one did something to let great start up developers get into the console arena.

Yes, MS will allow anyone and their mom to develop for their system becuase quality is their bottom priority. Now I know that a lot of people here root for the small time developer, but you don''t have to know a lot about the game market to be able to list 20+ PC games that never should have made it to the market. I don''t know the exact decision process and it may be too harsh, but I don''t blame them for setting a line somewhere.

Anyways, please don''t follow MS so blindly that you blame software faults on the hardware, and believe that even though MS has had no problems screwing over consumers in the PC market that they won''t also in the console market.


Mike

I''d reply but it would only continue a completly winnerless argument somewhere between the media''s truths and the real truths. If you dislike microsoft that much then you shouldn''t participate in this conversation as your opinion is completly biased anyway. I will suggest however that you research SONY (Standard Oil of New York) and find out how many things they have their hands into in comparison to Microsoft. I think you''ll find that SONY has the upper hand as far as GREED is concerned.

Hopefully MS do the right thing by consumers and developers, but only time can tell I guess. Its a bit premature to be commenting on.