quote: You also seem to be forgetting that Linux is Unix. (At least, pretty darn close).

Try "darn close." There is 0% of Unix in Linux, they''re just compatible. In fact, the company that currently owns the Linux kernel is GNU, which stands for "GNU''s NOT Unix"!

quote: I just want to bring my two cents into this equation. ImmaGNUman said “. Game Programmers are a totally significant crowd. If all game programs just today, moved over to Linux, most other developers would have to follow, because most people at home really just want to play games, and that’s where the money is, in the home computing” Now this must be the most stupid statement I have heard in my life. ImmaGNU, get the most popular game out there and put it up against any Office Suite and whom will you put your money on when it comes to selling more copies? I don’t know about you but I’m putting my money on Office.

StarOffice will do nicely . 99% compatible, and looks almost the same.

quote: Knowing that the avg person has some type of Microsoft Office, every company has Office. Now how many of these same companies have games? Now you said if every game programmer moved too Linux everyone else would fallow? Try selling that to all these big name computer companies and hardware manufactures who don’t even make drivers to Linux.

That list, unfortunately, is getting smaller by the month.

quote: You say that Linux is easy and the average person can learn Linux right? Now, the avg person doesn’t even know what a driver is so how are they going to go search for some type of driver to get there hardware to work?

This is of of the biggest Windows problems!

quote: The avg person will be thinking “heck it should work right out the box”. Now, I could be wrong and please let me know if I am but don’t you have compile your kernal to get new drivers to work?

Don''t you have to download and install new drivers for Windows, also? BTW, you don''t have to re-compile the kernel for most drivers. Only a select few.

quote: Do you think the avg user even knows what a kernal is? Do you think the avg person will know how to config a makefile or anything like that? How many people out there that are just starting to learn about computer even know what “OS” stands for, and you think they will change to Linux just because all game programmers do? The avg user
can careless about games. This world is a business world and wants business applications and wants a pretty GUI to interface with there business life style. I like to see an avg user even think about trying to learn vi, now that’s a joke!

Nobody who runs XWindows has to learn vi. You''re just using scare tatics here.

quote: As much as I love vi , most newer programmers won’t use it so you think the avg person will? I could go on and on why the avg person or company is not going to switch to Linux jus because game programmers do.

Please do. I like refuting arguments. BTW, there are plenty of business applications for Linux, so any argument that people will stick to Windows because this is a business world are really weak. The real reasons are because:

1. People are uninformed.

2. They want to stick with what they know.

3. They believe it''s hard to install and work with, although this is getting more false by the month.

4. (the biggest) There''s no real big reason for the ordinary person to switch! Windows does what they want, and it''s found on most (note: not all) new computers, so they get what they take (or what is demanded by their company). They really don''t care if Linux is better, besides, most of what they hear is that it isn''t.

Anyway, I''ll still use Linux, even if the general public can''t make heads or tails of it. I love the challenge .


"The world isn't run by weapons anymore; or energy, or money; it's run by little ones and zeroes, little bits of data -- it's all just electrons."

Nobody really ''owns'' Lniux per se, although Torvalds does, he keeps it open source and free. The Linux kernel is also based on the Unix kernel design.

-----------------------------

A wise man once said "A person with half a clue is more dangerous than a person with or without one."

Next language: C<<1

Edited by - jonnyfish on August 22, 2000 9:57:34 PM

Thanks for correcting me. Nobody "owns" Linux, but I think that GNU maintains the currently accepted kernel.

Can we keep to C#? I''m sick of Linux vs. Windows. Both are kick-ass OSes, each with there downfalls.

Back to C#. How can anyone say its not trying to ''replace'' a language. It is portrayed as a webbier, snazzier C++ which is a huge improvement over C++, getting rid of ''annoying'' things such as having to deal with ->, ::, ., and pointers, and templates. Not to mention mulitple inheritance. There goes my plan to make a mermaid by deriving a class ''MERMAID'' from ''FISH'' and ''WOMAN''!!!!

-Simple
-Modern
-Object-oriented
-Type-safe
-Versionable
-Compatible
-Flexible

These are the words that make C# stand out apparently. All buzzwords to me. Here is my opinion on each.

SIMPLE - A tradeoff for power. SIMPLE as that. Simple means easy, intuitive, and nice. Simple also means incomplex, and a big power-tradeoff. Less power is what SIMPLE means to me.

MODERN - This is the same as simple it seems! That and its more webby. Year 2047: "We''ve shitcanned C?!C#>STUPID, and made a more modern language. Its called C-DAE# (C Dumb Ass Edition Sharp) and its really easy since you clowns couldn''t code for crap. It has two commands, START and FINISH." I fear this day.

OBJECT::ORIENTATED - Maybe so, but no multiple inheritance is a stupid thig to leave out. The OO model is kinda Java-like.

TYPE-SAFE - I thought the only reason they left the non-type safe stuff out of C++ was to help with ANSI C compatibility. Apart from that C++ WAS type-safe.

VERSIONABLE - Yeah but you still have to code it yourself. C# is just ''capable'' of this feat.

COMPATIBLE - By this they mean with other MS APIs, like CLS and OLE. Sooo compatible man.

FLEXIBLE - BUZZWORD OF THE CENTURY! I''ve never heard so much crap from MS. By FLEXIBLE, they mean you can turn the automatic ''safe mode'' off by delcaring a function or whatever ''unsafe''. And if you do that you can even manage your very own memory!

I''m sorry MS, but I don''t think this improvements are good enough. C++ warranted being a new language. It inroduced classes, templates, and everything which entails object orientation. C# is just ''simplified'' (they''re proud of it!) and doesn''t do anything new. Oh yeah, except for better integration with even more MS APIs.

This is a quote from "Presenting C#":
"Contributing to the ease of use is the elimination of certain features of C++: no more macros, no templates, and no multiple inheritance. The aforementioned features create more problems than they provide benefit—especially for enterprise developers."

More trouble than its worth they reckon? Hmm... I must disagree. Strongly, in fact.

Here''s another quote from the same book:
"One thing you definitely wouldn''t attribute to C++ is that learning it is simple. This is not so with C#. The foremost goal for this programming language was simplicity. Many features—or the lack thereof—contribute to the overall simplicity of C#."

Or lack therof? Well done. Lets leave out features, so little Johnny the programmer doesn''t cut his hand. Good one. Does anyone else see the complete idiocy in this?

Here is yet another contraverisal quote:
"Pointers are a prominent feature that is missing in C#. By default, you are working with managed code, where unsafe operations, such as direct memory manipulation, are not allowed. I don''t think any C++ programmer can claim never to have accessed memory that didn''t belong to him via a pointer.
Closely related to the pointer "drama" is operator "madness." In C++, you have ::, ., and -> operators that are used for namespaces, members, and references. For a beginner, operators make for yet another hard day of learning. C# does away with the different operators in favor of a single one: the . (the "dot"). All that a programmer now has to understand is the notion of nested names."

I think the singular dot will confuse C++ programmers anyway. Consider this:

void classname.function()

Nowdoesn''t that look awful. I think the operators HELPED us to tell the difference between a pointer object, an instance, and an actual class.

Yes, StarOffice might do nicely but still do you think people are going to switch to this operating system because of it? Plus, let''s look at the disadvantages of Linux.
1) You have to mount and unmount drives in order to use them. A person using a computer for the first time will be frustrated and intimidated to stay away from the computer.
2) What’s the first thing they say to do when you install linux? Re-compile the kernel. Now even us best programmers would have been intimidated if we had to compile the kernel if this was the first time ever using the kernel.
3) Not every company develops drivers for Linux and when they do sometimes you have to re-compile the kernel. You only have to re-compile the kernel for a selected few drivers, but still you have to compile the kernel with these few. Once again this will intimidate people. You also said that with
Windows you have to search for drivers too? How many times have you bought Windows and installed Windows on your machine and all your hardware didn’t work? When you do have to install
the drivers, its VERY user friendly where with Linux you have to know your hardware very well to do anything, even to install the operating system. Now, how many of the avg users know what type of Sound card they have, or video card etc.
4) I said, “You say that Linux is easy and the average person can learn Linux right? Now, the avg person doesn’t even know what a driver is so how are they going to go search for some type of driver to get there hardware to work?” and your remark to this was “This is of of the biggest Windows problems!”. Now how is this Windows biggest problem? The avg user doesn’t want to worry about drivers, and why should they have too? That’s for advance users not the avg user or a new user. You also said “Don''t you have to download and install new drivers for Windows, also?” Now how many times have you bought Windows and it doesn’t have some kind of default drivers that doesn’t work with the hardware? Yes, you need to install drivers if you buy new hardware or wanted updated drivers but the avg person doesn’t do this type of stuff, they think of it like this “if it works, why mess with it?” They don’t care about new features, bugs in the code unless it’s really causing them not to use the hardware. Now, when you do find new drivers for
Windows all you have to do is click a few buttons and EVERYTHING is done for you which is not the
case with Linux.
5) Now I said “Knowing that the avg person has some type of Microsoft Office, every company has Office. Now how many of these same companies have games? Now you said if every game programmer moved too Linux everyone else would fallow? Try selling that to all these big name computer companies and hardware manufactures that don’t even make drivers to Linux. “ and your response to this was “That list, unfortunately, is getting smaller by the month”. Are you trying to tell me companies are gonna go out and buy games over Microsoft Office? Ok, if you say so dude. Now, just people or companies moving too
Linux is not changing every month either. 99% of all companies are still using UNIX, WinNT, DOS NOT inux. But you can believe that in your own little world if you like dude.
Now your last comment really made me laugh before you ended “Anyway, I''ll still use Linux, even if the general public can''t make heads or tails of it. I love the challenge .” Right here your admitting Linux is a challenge. Thank you for admitting my point.
Braves

First off, I won't say that the general public is going to accept Linux anytime soon. But there are still a few misconceptions about this OS lying around.

quote: Original post by braves


Yes, StarOffice might do nicely but still do you think people are going to switch to this operating system because of it? Plus, let's look at the disadvantages of Linux.
1) You have to mount and unmount drives in order to use them. A person using a computer for the first time will be frustrated and intimidated to stay away from the computer.

Not entirely true. When I installed SuSE, it recognized and mounted my hard drives automatically, and I've never had to really mess with that. I suspect later versions do a better job than my version, but here's what my computer does now:

1. All hard drives are mounted when the OS starts

2. My floppy (and CD-ROM) drives automatically mount on access.

quote:
2) What’s the first thing they say to do when you install linux? Re-compile the kernel. Now even us best programmers would have been intimidated if we had to compile the kernel if this was the first time ever using the kernel.

Huh? I only re-compiled the kernal once, and that was for fun!

The kernal that my computer used when I first installed Linux was put on by SuSE automatically, and didn't need to be compiled manually. And it worked perfectly, also.

quote:
3) Not every company develops drivers for Linux and when they do sometimes you have to re-compile the kernel. You only have to re-compile the kernel for a selected few drivers, but still you have to compile the kernel with these few. Once again this will intimidate people. You also said that with
Windows you have to search for drivers too? How many times have you bought Windows and installed Windows on your machine and all your hardware didn’t work?

1, 2, 3, . . .

quote: When you do have to install
the drivers, its VERY user friendly where with Linux you have to know your hardware very well to do anything, even to install the operating system. Now, how many of the avg users know what type of Sound card they have, or video card etc.

Oh yes, I had a modem and a sound card that refused to work together. How many people would know how to adjust the IRQ? "Plug-and-Pray" comes to mind. VERY friendly, if that's what you call it.

quote:

4) I said, “You say that Linux is easy and the average person can learn Linux right? Now, the avg person doesn’t even know what a driver is so how are they going to go search for some type of driver to get there hardware to work?” and your remark to this was “This is of of the biggest Windows problems!”. Now how is this Windows biggest problem?

How many times have you gotten a new modem, sound card, or anything else? What do you think those little disks that come with them are for? Coasters for your drink?

I didn't have to look for any drivers - they were all on the CD-ROMs that came with my distribution. I'm not having any more troubles than if I were using Windows.

quote: The avg user doesn’t want to worry about drivers, and why should they have too? That’s for advance users not the avg user or a new user. You also said “Don't you have to download and install new drivers for Windows, also?” Now how many times have you bought Windows and it doesn’t have some kind of default drivers that doesn’t work with the hardware?

Would you believe more than once?

quote: Yes, you need to install drivers if you buy new hardware or wanted updated drivers but the avg person doesn’t do this type of stuff, they think of it like this “if it works, why mess with it?”

(note his perfect reasoning here - he assumes it works!)

quote: They don’t care about new features, bugs in the code

Actually, my mother hates bugs. So does anybody I know who's encountered them.

quote: unless it’s really causing them not to use the hardware. Now, when you do find new drivers for
Windows all you have to do is click a few buttons and EVERYTHING is done for you which is not the
case with Linux.

I get it! You must be using Slackware Linux. Actually, everything is pretty much "done for you" in the latest Linux versions. YAST installs drivers and software as easily as the Windows install. Just mark the stuff you want, and it installs it for you. And most of the stuff is detected on startup, anyway. At least with SuSE. And updated drivers are done the same way as Windows - download and install. Installation is just putting a check in a checkbox and clicking "OK."

You're probably using a pre-installed Windows, where the manufacturer did the hard stuff for you. You know, they sell Linux pre-installed also? Then, you need absolutely no knowledge in order to get Linux installed! Neato!

quote:
5) Now I said “Knowing that the avg person has some type of Microsoft Office, every company has Office. Now how many of these same companies have games? Now you said if every game programmer moved too Linux everyone else would fallow? Try selling that to all these big name computer companies and hardware manufactures that don’t even make drivers to Linux. “ and your response to this was “That list, unfortunately, is getting smaller by the month”. Are you trying to tell me companies are gonna go out and buy games over Microsoft Office?

I said that the number of drivers supported is growing, I don't remember mentioning games.

quote:
Ok, if you say so dude. Now, just people or companies moving too
Linux is not changing every month either. 99% of all companies are still using UNIX, WinNT, DOS NOT inux. But you can believe that in your own little world if you like dude.

So you admit that people are actually using a non-microsoft OS (UNIX). And I'll want to know your source of statistical information. I don't remember that 99% anywhere. And make sure it's up-to-date stats, also.

quote:
Now your last comment really made me laugh before you ended “Anyway, I'll still use Linux, even if the general public can't make heads or tails of it. I love the challenge .” Right here your admitting Linux is a challenge. Thank you for admitting my point.
Braves

OK, so I don't have the latest, easy-to-install Linux. So sue me. But it can still be installed with little technical skill. YAST or YAST2 doesn't take a genius to run. About as much as a Windows install, from where I'm standing.




"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away" --Henry David Thoreau

Edited by - CobraA1 on August 23, 2000 1:49:13 PM

Enough Linux vs. Windows!!! Can''t you guys just respect each others'' OSes for what they are? Linux wasn''t made to be easy. Windows wasn''t made to not crash every 5 minutes. Can''t we just get off the topic of which OS is better and talk a bit about C#, which is what this post started out as, so how the hell did we come to an argument about Linux and Windows?

NO MORE BATTLE OF THE OSES!

I think there''s an important point here that a lot of people are missing.
C++ - non-proprietary language
Java/C# - owned by SUN/MS
Don''t even think about telling me Java is open standard. If so why were MS told not use the word "Java" in the IDE and then when they used J++ told not to use even "J"!

The way I see it is this Java/C# will fight it out. Now personally I''m interested in both langs, but I reckon this will just caus a further divide between environments. but from my point of view as a C++ programmer I really don''t need to give a rats ass. C++ is when all is said and done the most modern, widely supported OO language around. MS can shout C# to the hills but if it sucks noone will use it.

But eventually they''ll improve it. I mean how many people used the first versions of VB? But even when they do some mad genius punter like our good friend Bjarne will come up with another language owned by a standards committee instead of a company.

BTW I hate the new features of C#, especially the "properties" of classes. Hello, encapsulation where are you?
Still I know I''ll end up using it. not for games but for apps or whatever.

Oh yeah and on the win vs. linux thing, linux is a great os but all the game programmers in the world could move to it and it still wouldn''t replace windows, ''cos it doesn''t make business sense. I can write a business app for win32 and ship it without worrying if some silly prat who can barely switch on his machine will screw up his os. Linux is a specialist OS for nerds like us. Leave it that way, otherwise someone will just turn it into a win clone.

If GNU makes a free, open-source version of C#, I''ll take a look, otherwise I''m sticking with GCC and its Windows and DOS equivalents, Cygwin and DJGPP. I can barely afford college right now, much less an expensive compiler for a propriety programming language.


"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away" --Henry David Thoreau