Although I don''t want to abandon C++ (thank you, Bjarne), I do want to keep my mind open to new things.

Now, supposing that we had no other choice (keep in mind that I said supposing), would the unsafe keyword make game programming in C# even a remote possibility?

quote: Original post by OldManDave
I can''t believe some of you are so closed-minded. No matter _what_ you say, UNLESS Linux is an OS with a standard GUI (instead of shit loads of GUIs), and UNLESS it has one software company that has a huge control over it, it WON''T succeed. Maybe you''ll like it because you''re a MS-hater. But, an average-office/home-computing-Joe will NOT unless it has the basics.

As some did point out, it does have the basics. And sure, it might be a different (and, thus, considered "difficult") compared to Windows.. but so is moving from a PC to a Mac. You can get use to it, and possibly even like it more once you do!

quote:
Where the F*CK is the integrity of the operating system when who ever the HELL could add his/her own shit to the operating system (and I know Linux is open source).

No one said you had to add your own crap
You also seem to be forgetting that "Linux" isn''t it''s own OS anymore. You have different brands! (RedHat, Mandrake, etc)
Maybe they aren''t all open source?

quote:
And some GENIUS raised the issue of Unix and Linux being closely related. I know they are, but Unix is as popular with developers because it is (1) an OS that''s like Windows 2K in that it can act as a server OS, (2) "tradition" like C has been the tradition in programming languages.

You also seem to be forgetting that Linux is Unix. (At least, pretty darn close). Besides, that Linux systems ARE servers. SunOS is a "professional" operating system; as is RedHat. One is a Sun based, one is a Linux based. They are both good quality Unix systems.

quote:
No matter what you say... Linux might be #1 on your list, but it sure ain''t on home-user''s list! It will never be like that unless Linux has cleaned up a little.

True. But why do you think everyone has the misconception (including yourself) that Linux/Unix is hard? Because MS and others continually say "oh its so easy, just click here! Even your retarded little brother can use it!". Just because its different doesn''t mean its "harder". Hell, I thought my car was harder to drive when I first got it, now I like it -way- better than my other one, now that I''m use to it.

quote:
And, some of you need to get it INTO your head that I''m NOT a Linux hater--I''m saying what''s true.

Oh I don''t think you hate Linux.. I just think you haven''t tried it Or maybe saw a screen shot and though you knew everything about it from that. Sorry bud, until you actually use it, no one is going to think you know squat .. and we can tell.



---
Irek | irek@seventh.net

C# is designed to be a RAD (rapid application developement) tool for people that know C++. It''s not designed to replace C++, but to offer a solution to the programmer that needs to make a windows app quickly. Until C#, Visual Basic has really been the only microsoft tool to do this. And just as you wouldn''t use Visual Basic to write a release game, you wouldn''t use C#. Now, when it''s actually released and benchmarks run I''ll be more than happy to eat my words...but I don''t think it''ll be fast enough to write games.

Just a couple thoughts. They''ve all been said before, but the highly opinionated love to share their opinions.

Epolevne

quote:
just as you wouldn''t use Visual Basic to write a release game

I just hope nes doesn''t find out.

Heya, all-

I just needed to say something on this thread, since I feel I have noticed quite a bit of confusion about some facts. Here I go...

First of all, as many people have mentioned already, C# is a programming language. It is not a weapon. It is not a magic pill that will take you to wonderland. It is a programming language - aka "a tool" for developers who wish to use "tools". It''s much like a customized hammer for a carpenter (bear with me on this one). Sometimes a jeweler may need a very fine hammer to make adjustments, while a carpenter needs a powerful, manly hammer to feel powerful and manly. I''m sure you could drive a nail just as deep into the plank in the end with either hammer, but could you set the diamond with either?

Anyway, now that I got a stupid analogy in there for you, I want to draw you to my first point. C# is not for every trade there is in the field of programming. I am a fan of C++ and Java, even though they both have drawbacks. When I first looked at the differences between C++ and Java, I was ecstatic about not the differences, but the similarities. I didn''t have to learn an entire new way of typing my for loops to develop in Java! Yippee! What I DID have to do was learn to think in Java''s style. I had problems with importing classes. I had to learn all new function calls and layouts. But in the end, I had the tools to use Java effectively.

I am excited about C#. I am a Microsoft user probably as much as I am a linux user. Personally, I will not surf the internet under linux because I like Win2k for that. I prefer not to program Java under Windows because there are nice tools and there is pretty good support under linux. Once again, I only program games in Windows. DirectX and OpenGL both work there, so what could be better than two VERY well documented APIs? I do appreciate the features of both OS''s, but I also recognize that neither is exclusive of the other. They both have their places, in the world and on my computer.

Anyway, back to where I was going with that whole "I am excited about C#" thing. Basically, I think that Microsoft has done a justice to the good points of C++, without updating C++. I am willing to bet a year''s salary with half of my stock options that C++ will continue to thrive and grow under the light of C#. Unfortunately, I won''t do the same for Java. Java and C# have very similar target audiences, which is sure to cause a firefight between advocates of each. In any case, I''m looking foward to developing in C#.

Anyway, I just read over this and realized that I haven''t taken a stand on any subject yet. I must say that I hope Microsoft is able to build on Windows more through the years, as it is my choice OS (as it is in many homes and businesses). I also hope that companies like Sun and Microsoft will concentrate on C++ for a short while and maybe update it. It''s a great language already, but it tends to get boring if there isn''t an update (kinda like Visual Studio 6). Anyway, for those of you who are still paying attention - Good luck in your quest.


Andy Luedke

Hi folks,

I think we should not think too much about c# replacing anything like C++ or JAVA. It''s a new technologie from MS and i will take a look at it when it comes my way. I have done that with so many languages in my career, so why not try this one. It may helps me at some place. Since i am coming from the bank business i can tell you that it will have absolutely no influence within the next couple of years there, because the product change cycles are much slower there, and before the banks use anything it must proof itself to be useable or not. There are still more COBOL monsters running on their hosts than everyone of us could imagine. But the banks and insurances and big enterprises as well are also very important to MS since a single small project is most often a few million dollars value, and MS has lost a lot of terrain in the market caused by the instability and pitfalls of their server platform and their "moon phase like" product cycles. A lot of institutes currently plan something like a global object bus system to make all of their heterogenous apps talk to each other, without creating proprietary interfaces for every app to every other app again and again. There would be a market for (D)COM and other new technologie, but all i ever hear is that they rely on the good old platform independent middleware called CORBA. So be sure you will have all those lovely languages for another 10 years for sure.

Since i am not "married" to any OS, i do not hate MS products at all as long as they are working (i love MASM and NT client workstations), but from my experience i must say that there is a lot to be done for MS to get some things right, especially in the server market and their compiler platforms. I never had more trouble with coding platformindependent code than with MSVC. Everything worked fine on 6 UNIX ANSI C++ compilers, but when i had to compile the stuff under VC it gaves me a headache. Another thing i have experienced is that cheap MS products who were originally planned to be used for small solutions are misued for large projects, and then people start to complain about that. MS ACCESS for eample is a wonderful small and cheap tool to get a lot of things done very quick, and it may costs $200. But poeple misuse it and expect the same behaviour than from another product which costs $100,000.

I think we should be fair and give it a try, if it''s shit forget it, if not use it. Since i went throught the times when IBM ruled the IT world, i can tell you that they did not behave any better than MS today, i think they did even more worse. Buying something there was, and still is a nightmare. And all those big guys in the phalanx of "Bill Gates" hunters from the industry only want to take his place, that''s all. They do not think about you and me and you and our "immaterial values", they only think about money and gaining total control over the market.


cu

Peter

Everything I read about C# makes it incredibly obvious how much of a blatant rip-off of Java it is. The syntax is the same, the concept is the same. Their "using" is just the same as "import". They even have a "System" object from what I have seen. Can't MS be original just once?? Have MS ever come up with an original idea??

- Daniel
VG Games


Edited by - deakin on August 22, 2000 6:52:28 AM

"All those "annoying" things are features I LIKE!!!!!!!!!"

I bet you said the same when you had to move from VGA to SVGA, DOS to DirectX, C to C++ etc. C# isn''t a proper language to code games, and it''s platform-dependent, so I don''t think I''ll do anything but perharps Nice Little Apps(tm) with it, if anything.

-Jussi

Selkrank, C++ didn''t take away any annoying things(tm) from C, it added them, just like DirectX added COM(but somehow I doubt anyone loves this annoying thing). Couldn''t they just call C# ''D'' or ''P'' and follow some sort of logical order? Instead people go adding on funny characters. Next language in development: C+=2;

-----------------------------

A wise man once said "A person with half a clue is more dangerous than a person with or without one."

Hello everyone,
I just want to bring my two cents into this equation. ImmaGNUman said “. Game Programmers are a totally significant crowd. If all game programs just today, moved over to Linux, most other developers would have to follow, because most people at home really just want to play games, and that’s where the money is, in the home computing” Now this must be the most stupid statement I have heard in my life. ImmaGNU, get the most popular game out there and put it up against any Office Suite and whom will you put your money on when it comes to selling more copies? I don’t know about you but I’m putting my money on Office. Knowing that the avg person has some type of Microsoft Office, every company has Office. Now how many of these same companies have games? Now you said if every game programmer moved too Linux everyone else would fallow? Try selling that to all these big name computer companies and hardware manufactures who don’t even make drivers to Linux. You say that Linux is easy and the average person can learn Linux right? Now, the avg person doesn’t even know what a driver is so how are they going to go search for some type of driver to get there hardware to work? The avg person will be thinking “heck it should work right out the box”. Now, I could be wrong and please let me know if I am but don’t you have compile your kernal to get new drivers to work? Do you think the avg user even knows what a kernal is? Do you think the avg person will know how to config a makefile or anything like that? How many people out there that are just starting to learn about computer even know what “OS” stands for, and you think they will change to Linux just because all game programmers do? The avg user
can careless about games. This world is a business world and wants business applications and wants a pretty GUI to interface with there business life style. I like to see an avg user even think about trying to learn vi, now that’s a joke! As much as I love vi , most newer programmers won’t use it so you think the avg person will? I could go on and on why the avg person or company is not going to switch to Linux jus because game programmers do.




Edited by - braves on August 22, 2000 3:35:02 PM