Unless any of you were in WW2 then I don''t think you can pass an opinion on it. Besides the topic is C#.

um.. what''s the arguement here..

if you like it and it suits your needs then use it. if not then use something else. it''s just a language unless i''m missing something. i don''t go around saying how evil pascal or asm are.. what''s diff about C#?

it might be good for some people to have higher level than C/C++ and a bit lower than VB.

--keep in mind i haven''t read anything besides the forum talk or really seen any syntax of it yet so i''m no expert.

and the british did do way more, but they jsut didn''t have the resources/manpower to defeat them.. all the US did was send millions after millions of troops to overwhelm. we really didn''t have that great of an army except the amount of troops that were in it.

how the hell did wwII get brought up in a C# debate?

In response to Lucasdg''s post (before this WW2 rant started):

quote: Original post by Lucasdg

As for C#, well that is an obvious dominance *_"strategy"_* as someone pointed out before.
The thing is, you didn''t see Bjarne saying "piss off its mine!" did you? What I''m afraid of is if C# becomes more prominent than C++, Microsoft will have yet more control over, well, everything. And I can''t see C# for Linux or Mac happening anytime soon, so more people will have to buy windows boxes.

Well sure it''s obvious Microsoft is trying to dominate. If I were a shareholder (and I''m not) I wouldn''t want a company that was aiming for second place!

But now let''s remember that MS is trying to make C# an open standard. They would have an obvious advantage because they would be further along and have more experience with C# tools, but anyone could compete by making an alternative compiler/IDE.

One of the best advantages of using MS development tools are their integration with everything else (I didn''t say it was perfect, but naturally far better than the competition). People have been ragging on Microsoft because everything was proprietary, and now that they have embraced XML and opened up C# they''re still shouting "tyrants!"

It''s not Microsoft that pisses me off. It''s their competition. Microsoft has slipped up quite a few times, yet they always have the time to recover whilst the competition stands there with their proverbial finger up their butts.

Microsoft is a SOFTWARE company. Saying "they wrote C# to dominate" is like saying "Exxon/Mobil merged cuz they want to dominate". Um, excuse me for saying so, but: "NO DUH!"

Time to debunk another insidious C# myth:
All libaries and APIs for the .NET architecture will be based around COM ( It''s in the documentation people, so you''ve REALLY all read it?? ), and therefore a single library/API will interoperate with ALL the languages in the .NET platform without any modification or difficulty.
And yes, this does mean that nomatter what language the API was written in, you can''t tell afterwards.
[ Imagine that, you find out DirectX 9.0 was written entirely in Visual Basic ]

LucasDG, I don''t doubt that you have tried to consider the facts, but you are letting the [arguably deserved] animosity towards Microsoft colour your ideas. COM is a good thing, whatever you call it. It allows things to work together from a binary standpoint - really blurring the lines between language and technology. Because of this, it could well be that C# and any other languages DO become viable for Game Programming, in the following context:
Your highbrow programmers spend a lot of time in C, C++ and Assembler writing up the few basic, high-performance components that your game will rely on. There could be graphics, sound and AI in there, or whatever you want. Because of the .NET architecture you were using, now your second-tier programmers ( possibly: the Visual Basic weenies, at the risk of aggravating Nes8bit ) can do the game logic and glue in the language of their choice, VB115.12beta or whatever. The lack of direct-to-hardware commands and low-level control in this language makes no difference, since the part of the code they are writing is not the performance-critical part.
Now, game projects usually aren''t of the size that warrants this kind of development, but they just might be this big one day.

Now, I''m not blindly saying Microsoft is not doing anything wrong, even though some of you have put those words in my mouth.

quote: Benjamin Bunny
..it''s naive of you to dismiss the idea that Microsoft might be doing something monopolistic..

I never said they weren''t. It''s also naive of anyone to dismiss the work that Microsoft does on the basis that they are probably doing it for profit. Money makes the world go round, how many of us are programming [games or otherwise] purely for the joy and altruistic fun of it? I gather not so many of you.
Some of Microsoft''s dominance can be attributed to not-so-clean business practices. Some of it is due to the fact that they have some REALLY good people in that company that know exactly what will sell to the general public.
Case in point: Eurographics 2000 - sponsored by Sun Microsystems, people using Silicon Graphics all over the place, but only ONE presentation that WASN''T done in Powerpoint! Now, they are all bashing away at Microsoft in their own companies and schools, I''m sure, but they still can''t get away from the fact that Powerpoint is the only decent, well-supported presentation utility around. ( And yes, it sucks, it doesn''t do decent compression, it runs like a dog on anything but an Intel Gigantium 2000 terahertz, but it''s still the best out there... )


What I''m trying to say:
I''ve probably had more reason to think about Microsoft than any of you guys here... trust me, I have.



Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

I''m aware that Microsoft is a company and wants to make money, but I happen to think that their dominance is not a good thing. I think it would be more beneficial for us people, the IT community if companies shared the market. That way we''d have a bit of choice and that would lead to more competitive pricing.

And C# an open standard? It''s all very well to say this but how many OSes will C# work on?

quote:
Original Post by Anonymous

It''s not Microsoft that pisses me off. It''s their competition.

Yeah! Damn that competition! If it wasn''t for them, Microsoft could do what they want even more. They would have a field day! Geez. It''s companies like Sun and Apple that make good quality software which keep Microsoft just a bit on their toes. Besides, you don''t see the owners of Sun and Apple get custard pies thrown in their faces !!(that was so funny).

And C# is just a continuation of Microsofts fantasy to kill all areas of the competition. The language is quite obviously a Java competetant and whats more its being portrayed by Microsoft as a C++ replacement.

Now some of you might say "well MS are a company and they should be entitled to try and kill competition". But after hearing about some of the tactics they used like 3rd line forcing and sabotaging software to name a few (and thats what we know about), I don''t think they''re exactly ''playing fair''.

M-O-N-O-P-O-L-Y

U-N-F-A-I-R T-R-A-D-I-N-G S-T-R-A-T-E-G-I-E-S

quote: Original post by Lucasdg
It's companies like Sun and Apple that make good quality software which keep Microsoft just a bit on their toes. Besides, you don't see the owners of Sun and Apple get custard pies thrown in their faces !!(that was so funny).

[begin personal statement]Steve Jobs is undeniably one of the biggest worthless egos on the face of this planet! He's singlehandedly managed to torpedo the Apple company more than once.[/end personal statement]

But you are saying Sun and Apple make good software. So you are saying Microsoft has competition there. So you are therefore saying Microsoft does not have a complete monopoly.
So why are people still using more Microsoft products than Macs or Suns?
[ Personal opinion: People are using Macs, just the not-so-computery people that don't need more than a glorified typewriter. People are using Suns, but only for expensive servers. ]

And the Bill Gates cream-pie incident was not funny. This time it was just a pie, but next time it could be a handgrenade. You really shouldn't even consider it funny, because it was a very dangerous precedent. ( and yes, it happened in Belgium )

It's also nice to see you skirt around my arguments for COM and C# by completely ignoring them. I'd like to hear your opinion on them, if you've ever used COM, if you even know what it's supposed to be...
After all, YOU wanted a decent discussion with me about the facts.



Give me one more medicated peaceful moment.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~
ERROR: Your beta-version of Life1.0 has expired. Please upgrade to the full version. All important social functions will be disabled from now on.

Edited by - MadKeithV on September 4, 2000 4:01:24 AM

quote: Original post by Lucasdg
And C# an open standard? It''s all very well to say this but how many OSes will C# work on?

And how many Browsers will the scrolling marquee tag that you''re using work on? Hint: it''s a Microsoft proprietary extension to HTML, understood only by Internet Explorer (though I don''t know about the latest Netscape and Opera Browsers; they might have adopted it). *lol*

And as a hobbyist games programmer who sometimes writes tools at work (for Windows), I''m really looking forward to learn C#. I don''t give a flying fuck whether it''s an open standard, as long as I can (a) quickly code something that (b) works fine for the job it''s supposed to do and © is easier than stupid MFC (which others might just like, but I don''t; no argument necessary).
And (d) I like learning new stuff that might enhance my programming skills, and new languages are great for trying out new concepts.

I also like Solaris, for example; I''ve helped set up a nice big server at work that runs it and it''s a great system and a great learning experience. But I have yet to see a colleague sit at the server console, saying "yeah, X Windows rules so much that I''m throwing away my NT Workstation immediately".

But all this is not related to game programming, of course.

Guys, don''t fear C#. C++ will be just fine, I guess, but trying something new is just cool, isn''t it? I also tried C++ when it was relatively new, and I just liked it and kept using it. And if C# really sucks for you, don''t use it.

Just my two cents (Euro).

Stefan

quote: Original post by Epolevne

Bob the builder:

I don''t think it''s fair for any one country to claim supremecy for the victory in WW2. It was a joint effort.

I know. That''s my point.

My oppinion is, that I dislike c#..

it''s because I started learning c++ it was before about a half year, and I am understanding it now. And I don''t think c# is the right way.. because in c (++) you have to work with your processor, you allocate memory, and you work whit memoryadresses, pretty near to the computer, and so you learn to understand, what text,grafics and so really are for a pc. And with loosing pointers, you loose this(like in visual basic.. when you understand vb, you don''t understand what s happening then really in your pc)

oh.. and don''t forget to look to the starcraft 3d -- what is your oppinion post (thats what I made whith my friend after half a year