quote: Sure, story is RP, but it''s P''ing a specific R. Best case, it''s like acting in a play, worst case, it''s like reading a book in the first person. Even if the game is non-linear, being forced into a specific role kills part of the appeal P&P RPGs have taken for granted all these years.

You dont get epic story lines with P&P RPGs. What element of RPGs is used to put you in a role?...the story. The developers use stories/quests and things that have you do something to put you in a role. What if you get to choose your own quests you''re still being put into a role, granted you get to choose which role out of lets say 20, but still maybe none of those 20 available quests are the one you''d prefer. so either way you are forced into a role. And being made to play a role does not kill part of the appeal, maybe to you, but not for others, me included.

quote: Because the exploration is limited, the interaction is forced, the emotion is spoonfed (fnord). Heck, even some of the battle sequences are unavoidable

Exploration is not limited. Do you know how much time it takes to finish xenogears without exploration? about 50 hours. If you add exploration to that you can get over 100 hours of gameplay from it. So while your stsement mught be true for some rpg, it''s not for all. If you want to have a story then you will have to go through certain things. You will be forced into certain battles, cause the story is pre-made. Again if you want run-time stories the level og AI is not there yet. Interation is also not forced. Not all the time. Some things need to be done to advance the story, but you dont have to alk to that NPC standing by the barn. So it all boils down to the way stories are told in RPGs.

quote: I want something new and exciting to happen each time I play it. I want to build up reputation, or fall down a stupid pit trap, or get mad because the shopkeeper decided Skeleton Death Paladins weren''t welcome in his store any more.

Extreme AI Extreme AI Extreme AI Extreme AI Extreme AI .
either that or a human behind the wheel.

quote: I don''t want to know what happens ahead of time. I don''t want ANYONE to know what happens ahead of time.

Like I said this cant happen in traditional RPGs because of the story element. With P2P RPGs you can have this, but the story element is barely there. And most of my friend prefer to have th eepic story line.

quote: I want them to do the imagining for me?

No...Im basically saying that If I wanted to make my own role, Id have to make my own RPG (Im not talking about P2P), and that just takes too long. Id rather have the world and story premade, and be awed by it as i play through it. In some cases even be inspired by it. A game is essentially about passing obstacles that the developers put there. People are not putting it there as you play, they have been put there and are static. Again, the AI is not at that level to put whatever it feels like depending on what you do in the game. and No it is not simple to implement.

quote: That''s too bad - and really, you might be better served getting a good book or movie instead of your next RPG in this vein

No I wont be better served getting a book. Becuase in an RPG I get to choose to go left or right. If I wanna stay back in a town and explore a little more, I have the freedom to do so. I can use the weapon that I think is the coolest, I can go kill an innocent passer byer, if I just feel like it, I can go sleep at an inn for 3 days in a row, then go to teh bar, drink some, then go back to the inn. I can battle monsters for hours trying to get a hold of rare items. There is the danger of that big bully killing me, I can be a ninja/priest/mage/fighter/bard in a single game. I can choose to sneak around, or I can just blow everythign up.

....you see, there are is a big difference betwen that and being forced to sit through a static book or movie.

:::: [ Triple Buffer V2.0 ] ::::

FF is well known, but do people buy the game because it''s yet another FF or because they know what they''ll get, that''s a difficult question to answer.

Anyway my favorite RPG is Grandia 2 on the Dreamcast.
Shenmue is good too, but it''s a bit long, and less epic.

Playing a preset role isn''t that bad, anyway, the real question is, how can you PLAY a role in a computer game anyway ?


-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

what is RPG?

return 0;

quote: Original post by IFooBar
You dont get epic story lines with P&P RPGs.

I feel really sorry for your P&P RPG sessions, then.

quote: What element of RPGs is used to put you in a role?...the story.

No, it''s the environment. Story forces you into a role. Environment lets you decide on a role.

quote: The developers use stories/quests and things that have you do something to put you in a role. What if you get to choose your own quests you''re still being put into a role, granted you get to choose which role out of lets say 20, but still maybe none of those 20 available quests are the one you''d prefer. so either way you are forced into a role. And being made to play a role does not kill part of the appeal, maybe to you, but not for others, me included.

Exactly. You are put in a role. And, like I said, this may be exactly what people want. I, however, don''t want this. Whether I have 0 quest choices or 100, if I''m forced to think a certain way, it''s breaking both my immersion and my role playing.

quote: Exploration is not limited. Do you know how much time it takes to finish xenogears without exploration? about 50 hours. If you add exploration to that you can get over 100 hours of gameplay from it.

You misunderstood "limited". It''s limited not by how much of it, but by what of it there is. See that castle on the hill there? Let me go into it, even if the monsters are way more powerful than I am. Don''t make me have to wait until I''m "allowed" to go in there. (and if I die, too bad. It''s my fault for being a dumbass and going in there in the first place.)

quote: Again if you want run-time stories the level og AI is not there yet. Interation is also not forced. Not all the time. Some things need to be done to advance the story, but you dont have to alk to that NPC standing by the barn. So it all boils down to the way stories are told in RPGs.

And again, you''re missing the point. You are assuming that all RPGs MUST have a story, that there MUST be an ending, that everything MUST "advance" instead of "happen". This takes another step in removing ME from the game. People often complain that they have no motivation if there isn''t a story to fufill. My complaint is that I don''t WANT to fufill the story, because it means THE END.

quote: Extreme AI Extreme AI Extreme AI Extreme AI Extreme AI .
either that or a human behind the wheel.

Uh, more like "simple random number generator" and "state management".

when Player kills x
if x is undead
undeadRace->tolerance--;
endif
endwhen

Over simplified, yes. Hard to extrapolate into something workable, no.

quote: Like I said this cant happen in traditional RPGs because of the story element. With P2P RPGs you can have this, but the story element is barely there. And most of my friend prefer to have th eepic story line.

Again, who is your DM? You are seriously being cheated out of quality P&P RPGing. (P&P = pen & paper, ya? ... I just noticed you used P2P there...)

quote: Again, the AI is not at that level to put whatever it feels like depending on what you do in the game. and No it is not simple to implement.

And before Populous came out, people said it was crazy having that kind of scope on a personal computer. And before Powermonger came out, people said it was crazy having that many units, each with individual names and feelings. And before the Sims came out, people said that level of apparent AI was still years away. The point here is there are ways of accomplishing "epic feats" with minimal effort.

As an example, the game I work on professionally is the #1 rated sports game of all time, and with good reason. Its statisical model and realism is unsurpassed. This year, I implemented a way to track 3250 baseball players, complete with all personal details and full historical stats, in less than 500k of non-volatile storage, bringing a full 4-level franchise mode to the PS2 and GameCube - and this using a 6 year old code base. Before I started implementing it, I had people tell me it was impossible, that it was too much data, or otherwise just too complex. Guess who was right?

quote: No I wont be better served getting a book. Becuase in an RPG I get to choose to go left or right. If I wanna stay back in a town and explore a little more, I have the freedom to do so. I can use the weapon that I think is the coolest, I can go kill an innocent passer byer, if I just feel like it, I can go sleep at an inn for 3 days in a row, then go to teh bar, drink some, then go back to the inn. I can battle monsters for hours trying to get a hold of rare items. There is the danger of that big bully killing me, I can be a ninja/priest/mage/fighter/bard in a single game. I can choose to sneak around, or I can just blow everythign up.

....you see, there are is a big difference betwen that and being forced to sit through a static book or movie.

You do just realize that what you said is exactly what I''m arguing for, don''t you? The difference is, you''re happy to accept it on a (much) smaller scope. The illusion of choice is enough for you (and most others). Yes, you can stay back in town and do whatever, but sooner or later, if you want to leave the town, you''re going to have to talk to the king, or beat the monster in the dungeon, just so the next town is unlocked for you.

quote: Original post by scaught
I guess "boring battle system" is hard to disagree with - my tastes make very few battle systems boring, however.

...you should not "level up" by spending hours killing monsters below your level.

I''m quoting this post a bit late, but here goes anyways...

How about 2 cases in point for this:

1- About the battle system, I personally like the way it was done in Grandia ][ for PS2. That''s my favorite non-realtime one, because you factor the characters'' speed stats into a timeline, but it pauses everything to wait for command entry. Plus, it has a feature for automatic combat for all OR PART of your team. You get four people, so if you want, you can have a fighter, a caster, an item-person, and a backup/second fighter. If you want, you can set the caster, item, and alt fighter characters to auto, and play as a single character. This way, you''re not locked into automatic for just all or none of the team.

2- Regarding the leveling, if you''ve played Dark Age of Camelot (by Mythic, an MMORPG), then I like the way they handle it in their system. They have a ''con'' system to show what a monster would do in a fight versus you, and anything more than 2-3 levels below you will drop NO items, and give NO experience. Thus, you can still give some n00b a hand with a monster he never should have even looked at, but you can''t spend all day leveling on lowbies and get somewhere doing it.

Aside from that, what I''d like to see in an RPG is mainly adjustable difficulty AND a decent, branching storyline. That way, you increase the replayability a LOT. A good game will make you want to beat it on the normal difficulty, then go back and start over on the next harder one, AND try taking things differently this time, to branch in a different direction. Another good idea might be to have some parts branch based on difficulty (for example, a cave full of tough monsters, and good loot, but it''s blocked by a cave-in when you try to go there in Normal difficulty).

quote: Grandia ][ for PS2.

It''s an original Dreamcast Game, ported to the PS2 (except if you speak about Grandia X and not 2).
And I also like its battle system very much.




-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

a captivating rpg facilitates a higher return on investment than reality using relatively random reward intervals and a maintenance model that is roughly as complex as the player is smart

but that something of a tautolgical answer

a good rpg also organizes itself around a positive teleological principle which bears some parallel with the player''s own life. there are various approximations of the telos governing the player''s life - equilibrium, survival, proliferation, success, detachment - but ultimately, a good rpg helps the player in their search for God (the answer to everything)

quote: Original post by deClavier
a captivating rpg facilitates a higher return on investment than reality using relatively random reward intervals and a maintenance model that is roughly as complex as the player is smart

Not so much as the player is smart, but as the player is gullible. I could write in 15 minutes a story generator that could come up with some of the weak plots in a lot of the modern RPGs.

quote: a good rpg also organizes itself around a positive teleological principle which bears some parallel with the player''s own life. there are various approximations of the telos governing the player''s life - equilibrium, survival, proliferation, success, detachment - but ultimately, a good rpg helps the player in their search for God (the answer to everything)

I have to agree with the first part - a good RPG''s ''hook'' isn''t "get more stuff" or "beat the bad guy", it''s its ability to act as a vessel for player expression - and the "get more stuff" and "beat the bad guy" comes as icing on the cake. However, I have to disagree with the ''search for god'' bit - if anything, a good RPG will point you the other way, into yourself. (and while you most probably will find God there, I don''t think this is the right forum for a theological discussion. (and enough with the t-ologies .) )

-scott

quote: I feel really sorry for your P&P RPG sessions, then.

I am so very sorry. I think you''ve been talking about pen and paper, but Ive been mentioning online/peer2peer stuff. My bad.

quote: See that castle on the hill there? Let me go into it, even if the monsters are way more powerful than I am.

You can do this. ex: If FF8(?) you can fight powerful enemies way at the beginning at the game. Of course you die, heh.

quote: And again, you''re missing the point. You are assuming that all RPGs MUST have a story, that there MUST be an ending, that everything MUST "advance" instead of "happen". This takes another step in removing ME from the game. People often complain that they have no motivation if there isn''t a story to fufill. My complaint is that I don''t WANT to fufill the story, because it means THE END.

Then this is all just a difference of opinion. You prefer that way and I prefer this way.

quote: Uh, more like "simple random number generator" and "state management".

Over simplified, yes. Hard to extrapolate into something workable, no.

you said:

I want something new and exciting to happen each time I play it.

A simple random generator (im affraid) wont cut it. The only way at this point in time, on earth, amongst humans, to get a bran new experience each time you play is to play with humans, pen+paper.

so yes it is hard to extrapolate into something workable.

quote: (P&P = pen & paper, ya? … I just noticed you used P2P there…)

*ifoobar sweats from embarrasment*

quote: The point here is there are ways of accomplishing "epic feats" with minimal effort.

agreed. But none that have been "discovered/invented" at this time. Dont get me wtong here. If I could play a final fantasy with a different experience everytime I''d be all for it, but the AI isnt at tha level yet

quote: As an example, the game I work on professionally is the #1 rated sports game of all time, and with good reason. Its statisical model and realism is unsurpassed. This year, I implemented a way to track 3250 baseball players, complete with all personal details and full historical stats, in less than 500k of non-volatile storage, bringing a full 4-level franchise mode to the PS2 and GameCube - and this using a 6 year old code base. Before I started implementing it, I had people tell me it was impossible, that it was too much data, or otherwise just too complex. Guess who was right?

I must say, congats

quote: You do just realize that what you said is exactly what I''m arguing for, don''t you?

No. I was arguing that playing "todays" rpgs are more interactive then reading a book or movie. That was my only point there.

Your arguing for a hell of a lot of freedom of movement in RPGs, Im not. I''m satisfied with the amount of freedom there is. I also notice that the amount of freedom is increasing day by day. So maybe (probably) one day we''ll get to full freedom of movement, but we''re not there yet.

quote: act as a vessel for player expression

beautifully phrased

quote: I have to disagree with the ''search for god'' bit - if anything, a good RPG will point you the other way, into yourself. (and while you most probably will find God there,

I dunno if its considered internal or external. But I think a good RPG gives options to your life (what it could be). You may have questions about how the world is, how the world is handled, how its evolved, how people are, possibilities of how people can be, how you would want people to be. A good RPG caters to those needs. For example (im going over to movies) the matrix. Now there''s a movie that tackles a lot of questions that are inside (I guess this is internal then ay) you. With an RPG I''d have to say xenogears did the same thing for me. Religion and the search for god (maybe not god as in a diety but god as in your belief in a higher power) is on everyones mind. So a good RPG plays out the beliefs you question. Geez now Ive even got myself confused.

:::: [ Triple Buffer V2.0 ] ::::

hello.
i''ve enterd the world of RPG about 3 years ago, at first all i did is kill everybody with the sword (Diablo1 2).
after playing many RPG''s i''ve realized that there is nothing better then a powerfull wizard or sorccer. if u doing a new game try focusing on the magic part. better and more spells, better magic enemies. the best fight is between to powerfull wizards with all the magic armor and dispelling, invisible, mind control, thats the best.

so let me rap it for you in one word : "MAGIC" :>)