quote: Original post by Ingenu
-Involving story, with a few branchs, some side quests (worth
something, can be related later)
-Good graphics
-Good soundtrack
-None boring battle system
-Two paths, one without battle (maybe not everytime)
-Character based ennemy level
-NOT saving the world (saving a realm, village or someone is enough)

Wow, I don''t think there''s a post I could disagree with more.

My list looks something like:
- No story whatsoever. I want to play a game, not watch a movie. This doesn''t mean there can''t be quests, or quest-like things. It means that there''s not a beginning, a climax, and an end. It also means that you do not force me to be a 16 year old boy who lost his parents, but his father''s sword is the key to the universe. I want to be anonymous, or, if you prefer, I want to be me.
- Graphics do not matter. (see any roguelike for proof)
- Sound does not matter. (I''d rather have winamp going)
- I guess "boring battle system" is hard to disagree with - my tastes make very few battle systems boring, however.
- No paths. See #1.
- Enemies should not get stronger because you are. Ergo, you should not end up stronger than every monster. Furthermore, you should not "level up" by spending hours killing monsters below your level.
- Lastly, a point that''s easier to agree with. Saving the world implies ending. I don''t want to shut down. Likewise, if you save a city, it shouldn''t be the end, either. There''s no way one person could wipe out all evil, and the world should reflect that, even if it''s as abstractly as dungeons that randomly remap/restock themselves each time you enter.

But that''s just me.

if you dont level up by killing monsters, how would you level up?

quote: Original post by Doctor
if you dont level up by killing monsters, how would you level up?

In the (imo) better RPG systems, you _DON''T_ level up. You work at something and get better at that skill and a little better at related skills. Also, note that he said you shouldn''t level up by spending hours killing monsters weaker than you.

/me think a fps-player has stumbleup upon a rpg thread

-Luctus
Codito, Ergo Sum (Courtesy of ThinkGeek)

[Mail][DreggSoft][Fileformat Guide][n00bs]

yo scaught, I think you missed a major point of rpg''s while simultaneously getting another one. An rpg''s ''purpose'' is too either put you in a role you would never otherwise be able to experience or put you in a world where you can be ''yourself'' + plate mail and chain lightning (if none of the rpg''s you''ve played do this, try d&d, but i think you lack the imagination and patience for it) (just get diablo II, i''m sure blizzard north will be happy for you). Some rpg''s have a problem with overly contrived storylines. Another thing: otaku productions makes fmv''s that are downright epic. It does this with GOOD GRAPHICS (and ideas, and hellish amounts of time, and $200,000 graphics programs, etc.) Furthermore, alot of rpg''s have monster difficulty based on what area you''re in, not your clevel, and a system of leveling up that discourages killing weak monsters by (eventually) requiring huge incredible masses of xp to level up.

Doctor: Extrarius is right (again). Try Ultima Online or some such. In such games you accumulate a repertoire of skills over time and increase stats (e.g. strength), by using them (e.g. becoming a blacksmith for a while) (also see Betrayal at Antara, not only is it a freakin LONG rpg, but it has a skill setup that ownz)

quote: Original post by wraith20
An rpg''s ''purpose'' is too either put you in a role you would never otherwise be able to experience or put you in a world where you can be ''yourself'' + plate mail and chain lightning (if none of the rpg''s you''ve played do this, try d&d, but i think you lack the imagination and patience for it) (just get diablo II, i''m sure blizzard north will be happy for you).

That''s cute - judging me on my lack of imagination and patience. It''s exactly my imagination and patience that makes me demand the style of RPG that I play. I don''t want the game to tell me my role - that does not mean that I don''t want to play a role. Playing the developer''s idea of a main character is doing just that - it limits your imagination by forcing you to identify with preconceived notions. "But what if I am glad they killed my parents and burned my town?" Too bad, it''s your goal to find and punish the "evil" forces behind it.

Most of the drivel that passes for RPG these days is very little RP, very little G, and a lot of story that you get to pretend to interact with. Does that mean they''re not fun? Of course not - if you enjoy them, more power to you. But don''t fool yourself into thinking you''re doing any more role playing than you are while reading a book or watching a movie.

quote: Some rpg''s have a problem with overly contrived storylines.

The real problem is most "RPG"s have too constrictive of storylines, contrived or otherwise.

quote: Another thing: otaku productions makes fmv''s that are downright epic. It does this with GOOD GRAPHICS (and ideas, and hellish amounts of time, and $200,000 graphics programs, etc.)

Good for Otaku productions. What does this have to do with anything? I didn''t say a RPG has to have BAD graphics. I said that "good graphics" were not a requirement of a good RPG, just like color does not necessarily make a good movie, or a famous author does not necessarily make a good book.

quote: Furthermore, alot of rpg''s have monster difficulty based on what area you''re in, not your clevel, and a system of leveling up that discourages killing weak monsters by (eventually) requiring huge incredible masses of xp to level up.

Which is exactly what I was saying.

quote: Original post by Luctus
/me think a fps-player has stumbleup upon a rpg thread

/me thinks someone who doesn''t know how to emote properly replied.
Seriously, anyone who somehow managed to interpret my post as me preferring "instant action only" has some serious issues to work through.

-scott

I think you saying ''no story whatsoever'' kind of prejiduced everyone against you (it probably the main source for Luctus''s comment). As it was the first thing you mentioned, it set the tone for everything else. Sorry for dissecting your post. No more flames.

First, I want a damn good story. Think Fallout 1 and 2. And not just the main plot, but a really cool world that immerses you so you know everything about it, and with NPC''s at logical places that do logical stuff.

I didn''t like Morrowind for this reason. I started it up, played it for... well, 5 hours maybe? But the story was lame. Exactly the same for Wizardy 8 (but W8 had a much nicer combat system, so I played that more)


Second, I want a FUN tactical combat system. From what I''ve seen of FF games, there doesn''t seem to be any tactics involved, except choosing attacks. But since the only thing that changes is your opponent, it seems like it''s hella easy to choose the optimal fighting style.

Fallout did this really good. I didn''t like BG''s fighting style THAT much, but that was because it was basically a real-time version of FF fighting. There HAS to be a better way! (and I think I have it )

Combat should be turnbased, or pausable real-time. NeverWinter Nights was sorta fun, I guess.



Third, I don''t want overdramatic NPCs. This was no problem at all in Fallout 1 or 2, but it definitely was in BG1. It was better in NWN, but still a bit too much for me... WHY CAN''T NPC''S IN A FANTASY WORLD SPEAK LIKE A NORMAL PERSON??? And dwarves, for some reason, always seem to come from Scotland, or Ireland, or somewhere around there....


Umm....


*to be continued*

"Kaka e gott" - Me

Many interesting points, I especially agree with:

Cater to fantasies.
Each choice should make a difference.
Levelling up is best avoided.

Moreover, I would like to add:

Offer many opportunities to role-play. Let''s say you can choose between a polite or a smart-ass thing to say to an NPC. Even if the choice only gives different phrases in response, it allows the player to express himself. It would be even better if it had some gameplay difference, though.

Let the player decide all signifant things player characters do and say. Don''t make the character say "I''ve come to destroy you!" if the player may have wanted to say hello. It''s not role playing.

No forced failure, give the player at least a small chance. Avoid a story that requires the main character to get knocked unconscious, just to wake up in an enemy base or something. In such a case, it could be possible to follow an enemy or force him to lead you there instead.

There can never be too much freedom in character creation and development. Let the player play whatever character he wants. I''d even want to include difficulty levels in character building to complement difficulty levels in combat or other things. Some may want to have godlike characters and face inhuman challenges, while others may prefer ordinary people facing more manageable problems. Alternatively, it could be possible to build characters that are perfect in many respects, but have some obscure weakness, like not being able to get NPCs to join. Finally, there will be players who don''t care, so don''t make it critical to understand all the nuances and spend a lot of time fiddling.

-------------------
Aim for the horizon
but watch your step

Srekel,

The Fallout games have great atmosphere, solid story and lots of fun stuff. I really liked Fallout. But I think Fallout 2 is severely lacking in terms of immersion. The very high number of real-life weapons really crashes with the completely unrealistic combat. When I see those guns, I get high expectations about their performance, but it''s disappointing and downright frustrating when those expectations are not fulfilled in combat. People can simply withstand way too much damage. As a result combat gets very time consuming, even at close range, making matters even worse. It would be cool if a .44 hollow point bullet in the eye actually killed, or if you had a chance to silently kill people with a knife. Not so in Fallout.

Oh well, I just hope the source code for Fallout 2 will be released in not too long.