quote:
quote:Unwise Owl
But does this damage the developers? I''d never had paid for those extra 15 games anyway, I just can have more fun by copy some of them.
Skewered thinking. You don''t "deserve'' to play those games, so if you can''t afford them (or can''t play them at a friend''s house/rent them), then don''t play them.

Actually it isnt skewered thinking, the point he is trying to make is whether or not he is causing a loss of income for the developers, and he isnt clearly.

quote:
Piracy is illegal, and it is damaging to the software industry. There is no justification for it. Those who think otherwise are simply wrong, whatever bizarre and convoluted reasoning they come up with to justify their position.

Noone is really trying to justify it, but the truth remains thats it more complicated than common theft!

quote:
The point isn''t that you''re hurting the developer, the point it you''re breaking the law!

But is breaking the law the same as something being morally wrong?

quote:
I have yet to hear a valid reason for pirating. "Because I want it" isn''t a valid reason!!! If I want to kick your ass because your an idiot does that mean I can?!?!

Modern society is based on the principle that you are free to do what you want as long as you dont "hurt" others(by interfering with their freedom for example). If you kick my ass because you want to, you are hurting me. If you steal my money you are "hurting" me causing a loss of my property. But if you make a copy of a program i developed, you will only have caused a loss if you would actually have BOUGHT it if you couldnt copy it. If not you have caused me no loss at all.
Of course, the law itself isnt formulated as such, but that is my view on the situation.

I don''t pirate all that much software. Anything I''ve played past the first few levels on, I own.
I''ve got a job and steady amounts of spending money, but I sort of agree with Owl. Games are too expensive for me. If the games started out at $20, I would buy between 2 and 3 times as many. The same thing goes for DVDs; I would buy lots of them new, if they weren''t $25 dollars a pop.

quote: Original post by Ziphnor
But is breaking the law the same as something being morally wrong?

No, but there''s a difference between things like civil disobedience and stealing.

So than it''s ok if I walk into a shop, take pictures of all the paintings, come home print them out and hang them on my walls?

Where I live practically NOONE buys ANYTHING.

Now that everyone has got a fast connection they just get whatever they want from the net. People only buy when they REALLY want it and can''t get it in any other way than buying it (maybe for online gaming with an uniqe cdkey.)
Movies are being downloaded in masses too. It''s really sad.

The people I know wouldn''t buy stuff even if it was cheaper. It''s so easy to get it for them anyway. And they are used to it. They don''t feel like they''re breaking the law.

I know one guy who wouldn''t even smoke marijuana with the rest us.. becasue it ''was illegal''. And that guy has hundreds of cds with games and movies that he has downloaded. Really really sad.

And yes I bought visual c++ 6.0 when I was 17 - I couln''t afford pro or enterprise so I just got standard. Simple enough.

quote: Original post by Lohrno

Because it anyway costs lots of money for the creators of said MMOG to make the software in the first place. People who run MMOGs can not run a server for years for $60 a game. They need to charge subcription services because they run the webservers, and they are not free. Not only that but most MMOGs have to have networks of computers for each ''server.'' So their costs really DO add up. It''s not like a MUD where its all text, and Joe Shmoe can run it all day long at his ISP. He''d need like 15 computers. And for all that effor, the makers of said MMOG would like to make money themselves running the servers rather than let everyone else run them.

I wasnt saying charge for the game not the service, I was saying charge for the service, not the game, I am aware of the costs of hosting those games, but it just doesnt make sence for the consumer to pay $60 just to find out that he has to pay $20 a month to play the game, I say give away the game for free or charge a lot les money for it since you will be making in the long run more money by charging for the service.

quote:
So than it''s ok if I walk into a shop, take pictures of all the paintings, come home print them out and hang them on my walls?

Well, one could argue that this would depend on(apart from your definition of "ok") whether or not you would have bought them otherwise. But regardless of whether its "ok" or not, what do you think the shop owner would prefer, you taking pictures of paintings or stealing them of the wall? All im saying is i think piracy is "less" of a crime than stealing.

The charge for the game box itself pays for the developers'' time in creating & testing a game, their overhead (licensing, office space etc.) as well as providing revenue to pay for the publisher''s cut etc. The publisher generally handles all the marketing for the product which generates all your interest in the game in the first place. Even with online fan groups SOME maketing is required if the developers expect their game to sell enough copies to be worthwhile.

Even without a large publisher, the developer generally can''t wait for subscription revenue to come in to recoup their investments after a long development cycle.

This is why you won''t likely see a mainstream title that doesn''t have an up-front price for the game.

quote: Original post by Ziphnor
Actually it isnt skewered thinking, the point he is trying to make is whether or not he is causing a loss of income for the developers, and he isnt clearly.

quote:
But if you make a copy of a program i developed, you will only have caused a loss if you would actually have BOUGHT it if you couldnt copy it. If not you have caused me no loss at all.

I disagree. My program is my property, which is only made available to you at a price - just like my money is only made available to you in return for services rendered. "Individual property" is created by application of "work" to common property, which makes intangible products property as well (and thus the term and area of IP). Therefore, piracy is akin to theft and causes the developer loss.

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Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!

Machaira, you''re supposed to be a moderator on these forums. Please don''t lower yourself to the level of childishness on the above thread.

On piracy, if you look at every game box that is released, they all charge the same price for new releases. In Canada, this amounts to 74.99$, unconditional, no matter who the game is from or who the publisher is. Does that not strike anyone as odd? Publishers charge that price to compete with each other, not to bring "the best quality games to the people that matter -- the gamers". Same goes for the music industry. Yet there are a very few games (the most recent that comes to memory being Serious Sam 2) that are released with a starting price of nearly half that (around 40$). So what justifies corporations charging ungodly sums of money for such games that are, at best, average quality with flashy graphics?

Personally I will support a game development group that I see has something of quality to offer. The last few games I purchased include Caesar III, Ultima IX, Deus Ex, and Vampire - Redemption. I enjoyed these games, so I chose to support the publishers. I did NOT buy the games mindlessly because of hype or whatnot, which is exactly the business model with which many game publishers make sales.

You might cry out that it''s illegal and evil and morally wrong to download software that you aren''t paying for, but at the same time, how wrong is it to rape the public with piss-poor products targetted at teenagers while playing on their needs to be socially acceptable? This doesn''t go for games only, this goes for clothing, music, sportswear, and food. It just so happens that it''s easy to get away with "sharing" games and music.

Evolution dictates that stronger beings prey on the weaker to survive; times haven''t changed. But the weaker have evolved to realize that, although they might not be part of the stronger pack of aggressors, they certainly can be more intelligent and circumvent such stupidities as "legalizing" strong-over-weak ideologies.

To contrast, alcohol and cigarettes are quite legal, yet they are detrimental to the public''s health. Marijuana has no scientifically proven adverse affects to one''s health. Yet it''s "illegal" to use, possess, or traffic it. Why? Because of historical near-sightedness. Shouldn''t such substances that produce psoriasis, cancer, traffic accidents and resulting deaths, and heart disease be banned from public use? Certainly. But large corporations need to thrive on the public''s consumption of their products. And therefore they will remain legal for a long time.

Going back to the "problem" of game piracy, please take a good long look at why something is legal or illegal before proving your own narrow-minded nature in the name of righteousness.



MatrixCubed
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