quote: Original post by Kwizatz
I completelly agree, if you are selling the service of connecting to the game world servers why charge for the game and expantions?

Because it anyway costs lots of money for the creators of said MMOG to make the software in the first place. People who run MMOGs can not run a server for years for $60 a game. They need to charge subcription services because they run the webservers, and they are not free. Not only that but most MMOGs have to have networks of computers for each ''server.'' So their costs really DO add up. It''s not like a MUD where its all text, and Joe Shmoe can run it all day long at his ISP. He''d need like 15 computers. And for all that effor, the makers of said MMOG would like to make money themselves running the servers rather than let everyone else run them.

Olesuyi, this was almost a discussion about design, when someone mentioned the article on Gamasutra about Spyro! =D I think we could direct it in that direction. What are all your most clever ideas about implementing copy protection, while not annoying the end user? =D I think a system that simply checks itself with an internet server to make sure two copies aren''t running at the same time might work. So long as you do a few CRC checks to make sure it can''t be cracked to not look at the server.

-=Lohrno

quote: Original post by Oluseyi
And the design elements in this discussion are...?

Just my way of saying this is OT. Wav asked us to look after this board since he''s on holiday.

Well, it would be perhaps more appropriate in a ''Game Production'' forum, but since none such forum exists, I suppose this is the next best thing.

In any case, is it not a design decision whether or not to implement some sort of copy protection within a game? If not, should it be? One of the reason Spyro''s protection worked so well was because the protection was integrated quite deeply into the game itself - levels became impossibly hard for example.

UNWISE OWL

quote: This cost makes it impossible for me to purchase more than about 4 to 5 games/year.

That''s about the amount of new games I buy each year (I''m not rich, but certainly not lacking funds).

If cost is an issue, all you have to do is wait a couple of weeks after a game is released. Buying a game USED usually lowers the price of a game by at least $10. You can probably get it even cheaper from a site like ebay (although as a minor, paying for something online might be tricky).

I bought Max Payne for I think $30, only 2 weeks after release. $10 might not seem like a lot, but instead of 5 games a year for $40, you can buy almost 7 games a year for $30. Do some more digging and you might be able to buy the game for $25. That''ll give you 8 games instead of 5. Just make sure you run behind the trends by a few weeks.

Make sure to also browse through the old game department. You can usually pick up pretty decent games for $10 or less.

----

Piracy...

Well, I guess it works like any other crime: deterring a criminal is all you can do. The least you can try is to stop the ''borderline'' criminals. Current piracy protection works fine for that. Of course, the criminals that are willing to spend more time/effort are not stopped by the first line of protection.

Saying that since the product isn''t being stolen from anyone (like a car) is a little silly. Marketing is done to determine how many people will buy a certain game. If some of the people that were supposed to buy the game steal it instead, the publishers will get less revenues.

There''s simply no excuse for piracy. If you don''t have the funds, then you don''t have the funds.

quote: Sandman
In any case, is it not a design decision whether or not to implement some sort of copy protection within a game?

That''s debatable. I think it''s actually a business decision, since it deals with sales and revenues.

quote: Unwise Owl
But does this damage the developers? I''d never had paid for those extra 15 games anyway, I just can have more fun by copy some of them.

Skewered thinking. You don''t "deserve'' to play those games, so if you can''t afford them (or can''t play them at a friend''s house/rent them), then don''t play them.

quote: And have you ever seen a teenager pay for VC++? I haven''t. It is far too "very, extremely, ultra, stupid" expensive.

That''s a lame cop-out. I bought MSVC 6.0 Pro for ~$100. Considering how much utility you''ll get from it, I''m sure you can scrounge that much up. You could also ask your parents/relatives/family friends to buy it for you (my mom''s friend bought me my first copy of MSVC - 4.0 about 7 years ago).

You have no excuse.

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Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!

About microsoft''s visual software - to tell the complete truth - (i''m 16) I couldn''t get the money for it. My dad thinks I''m a bad kid cause I don''t do well in half the classes I take at school - mostly cause they don''t intrest me or whatever...

But anyway, back onto topic... I used a pirated version of it until I got the cash to pay for it. Personnaly I think it''s ok to do what I did, cause I planned on buying it, and I did buy it eventually, no harm done ....

quote: Original post by Unwise owl
I was just thinking that you maybe wanted to hear a 15-years old game consumer''s opinion:

Ever thought about how expensive games are? Paying 40$ for one game is a little too much for me. And often I must buy an additional expansion pack to be able to get a level editor for that game etc.

If $40 is too expensive for you save your money until you can afford it like the rest of us do, loser! Same for the expansions!

quote: This cost makes it impossible for me to purchase more than about 4 to 5 games/year. Therefore when I have to choose between 20 titles I of course buy the 5 best games . The rest I usually (illegaly) copy from friends!!!

Waahhhh, go cry to your mommy because you can''t have every game that comes out. We don''t want to hear it.

quote: But does this damage the developers? I''d never had paid for those extra 15 games anyway, I just can have more fun by copy some of them.

The point isn''t that you''re hurting the developer, the point it you''re breaking the law!

quote: And have you ever seen a teenager pay for VC++? I haven''t. It is far too "very, extremely, ultra, stupid" expensive.

Again, if you can''t afford it, you shouldn''t have it!

I have yet to hear a valid reason for pirating. "Because I want it" isn''t a valid reason!!! If I want to kick your ass because your an idiot does that mean I can?!?!


Breakaway Games

Sorry for making you a bit upset (after all you are a community of developers) but I''m just telling you that some games are worth purchasing, some not. Just make the best game and I''ll pay for it. (One of my friends is a real gaming freak and he buys(!!!) 1 game/week, is that behavior better?)

Also the computer stores here in Sweden doesn''t set a game''s price to 10$ after a couple of weeks, rather after a whole year a 40$ game is lowered to 20$... And in those 10$-shelves you''ll only find games from five years ago (some DOS-games too).

I was also exaggerating a bit to make my point clear. I don''t personally illegaly copy 15 games a year, but I know people who do.

Guys, please don''t turn this into a stupid flame war.

Piracy is illegal, and it is damaging to the software industry. There is no justification for it. Those who think otherwise are simply wrong, whatever bizarre and convoluted reasoning they come up with to justify their position.

I would be more interested in hearing peoples ideas on exactly how far copy protection can to be taken before it becomes counter productive - anything that irritates the user to the point of preferring warezed versions over legal ones is counter productive.

It is also interesting to see some of the reasons people use for justifying pirated games. If developers can address some/all of these issues, would piracy still be such a problem?

[qote]I have yet to hear a valid reason for pirating. "Because I want it" isn''t a valid reason!!! If I want to kick your ass because your an idiot does that mean I can?!?!

Well who will take care of you when you''re old if you don''t learn a new generation the art of programming? :D (Neither meaning to insult you this time either!)

quote: Original post by Unwise owl
And have you ever seen a teenager pay for VC++? I haven''t. It is far too "very, extremely, ultra, stupid" expensive.

I have I''m a teenager.