I have no more time for closed minds,here's a key.Hope it fits. ;)

Muzikus · 2002-01-14T14:02:46

(This post was going to be a reply to the phantom job post,but it''s says a lot so I''m putting it in it''s own post.I''ve had enough quite frankly with the arrogance and lack of belief in anything,that is so commonly expressed on this board.If you think I''m still wasting peoples time and havn''t got a clue after reading this,I''d prepare yourself for a shock.My name is Alex Enchensunce.) I thought this was going too be just another post affirming my convictions on the mindset of those involved in the industry. On my return though,I''ve actually been pleasantly suprised with a few of the posts, although most how come from designers. I personally think this''ll be my last post (for a while at least). I''ve been so put off by the views expressed here,that I''ve come to conclude that I''m wasting my time. So I''ll let it all hang out and really tell you all my honest opinion as to why I feel this way. (I''ve expressed a bit of this in another post,so I''ll try and keep in precise.) Basically this is a description of myself and why I want too be a game designer,have a look and maybe you''d understand a bit more about how being a talented game designer is more based on talent than skill. "I see myself as having a gift" (Yeah,Yeah ). No really though, I have known since I pretty much started playing games,well when they got past pong that is. That I would find making games easy,it just seemed so perfect for me.( I now can attribute this to a few interconnecting personality traits,general mental capabilty and a few dispositions such as intense hyperactivity ). So I always kept it in my mind,which wasn''t hard seeing as I was a gaming addict.I mean real, I was original hardcore. In pretty much every arcade in my area,you''d see my 3 char handle G.O.D ,on pretty much every machine. So over the years,I became more sure this is what I wanted too do. I started to become serious between the age of 10-12. Just actually trying to draw levels and traps. I used to draw mario levels in class,and plan the jumps and platforms bad guys everything.I mean it didn''t move,but that never stopped me playing it. I then got more heavily into thinking about gameplay. Really what I do is gameplay,. The biggest frustration I''ve ever had with the industry was when games switched big business,and people forgot that this is the most important factor in the midst of everything getting so much more complicated. I spent my complete rather niave youth on trying to be the best game designer I could be.I was trying to be equal or better on design terms,all the good games I played as a youth,and there we''re many. The fundamental difference was there was so much variety back then. So many different worlds,so many different ideas. The way I geared my head up was that I figured that games would continue to get developed in short time frames (Hey even Captain Micro$uck,himself fell for that one,I have the advantage of youth at least.) So I would analyse everything in relation to games,and think of what people really want from games. Im just trying to give some background as too why I wanted too make games and as I said the reason I''m so frustrated now. The rest of that period was all pretty pointless,I was a smart dreamer who had talent and a stubborn head. Really though I couldn''t have done anything better because I think it was the perfect education. I knew nothing of programming,I never even heard anything about programming from anyone ever.(I mean as in a introduction) I was young and very hyperactive and social,and really was scared,and didn''t really know where to start on my own. I could have got a book,looking back,but I just wasn''t that sort of child. I understood about programming as far as you gave instructions to the computer to do stuff,and it did it. I also by that time realised I was hopelessly inept in maths,and physics,but excelled at all other classes. Gaining scholarships (private education) for a limited time, before getting kicked out for being disruptive and generally non conformist. So I stuck to what I was good at,as far as I saw it design was really it. I mean technically it had to get made, but it might as well be an exercise is wasting time without a good design. So too me that was a valued and respected job. I mean at the end of the day whoever comes up with the inital idea (if it''s a hit) is really the reason everyone gets paid. Edison makes a good point when he says genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.Funny how so little is so important. A lot of people now I believe,maybe think it''s easy to be a good game designer and come up with a hot game. Well you know it isn''t, so why is it apparent that so many "designers" put so little effort in and get there ideas from such generic areas. I was lucky,like I said I kept my head in the right place and did the right things. My ideas include stuff from everywhere. Mostly role playing in the real sense of the world. As in trying to get a glimpse at another life you''ll never know. It''s all the same from tv,movies to books. This is just the best medium ever created. Instead we often use it like some half arsed shallow exercise. I have yet to see anything that really people will play in the future because it was just that deep.I mean yeah people''ll probably have a go on mario for nostalgia,but I have yet to really see anything which is close to the quality as far as creative effort of any of the old books we still read or the old movies we watch. The frustration is I know why ,and I have so much too offer the gaming community. Yet I''m wasting my time because of the usual problems. (I know) It''s just; without wanting to appear arrogant,people seem to always find it very hard to believe that you''re not just full of bull.(especially if they''re smart) if you come out with stuff like I am amazing,you know everyone else; they suck!,I could do that it my sleep. Without actual proof,and with intellectual property that can be a problem. I mean a lot of people can actually post there ideas here. I can''t even give away more than technical requirements more often than not. Just because I know the market,and not as a gamer.As someone with serious ability and knowledge of both business and psychology/human behavior. I don''t even really need to think about it much. I just know pretty much everything you need to do with a game too make it succeed. The market doesn''t give 2 hoots about the effort we put in. They don''t care if you''ve worked your nuts off, they just want too be impressed. Impressed enough not to put your game down,but more importantly be impressed enough to pick it up. There are so many fundamental things, that I can''t honestly believe many of you think really hard about. Just a few simple classics. Names that tell you nothing about the game. Names that instantly make your game sound like other cliche titles,because they are.Even if you have really broken new ground if you''ve got a game that looks like some sort of clone and it''s got a cliche name. The most simple basic fundamental problem,though that people overlook. Is the inital idea. I collect ideas,I constantly wait and disgard everything that isn''t just what I want from a game. My ideas usually last seconds,I might have an inital flash and then think no it''s not really a big deal. The only ideas I really keep are ones that bring something totally new. This is what you really need for success,titles that fly off shelves just cause of the concept. (There''s so much that could be done,and no one does it,I mean this isn''t like music where there are 12 notes,and pretty much every chord progession has already been done. AHHHHH!!.It drives me nuts,It''s not even like I''m a genius or anything, it''s just that most of you don''t have a ******* clue.) I don''t want too make a couple of flops and find my ground or whatever.With a good, enthusiastic team (seems $ is the only real motivator from where i''m standing).I believe I''d have no reason to fail as a designer. Really one of the biggest problem dev teams make is the fact that they don''t really have too pitch an idea to anyone but themselves and arn''t strict enough. I.E in movies,you usually have too pitch an idea to someone. It has to be so good within a few sentences they already like it. In games you often decide over some laid back meetings,what the next plan is.The problem with this is it''s very laidback. There is no real creative centre,just concensus. You need one or at the most up to three designers,who discuss things first soley on a concept level.Then think about various technical issues. Obviously concept basically means,pitch,gameplay elements,graphical representation,control mechanism,layout,style, and charecters/basic plot e.t.c if needed. Everything else shouldn''t even come into your mind till that makes you drool. Then it''s time to worry about effects,maps,physics weather you want voiceovers or subtitles.Weather you want the latest in shaded, bump mapped goodness or weather the charecters should clutch thier body parts when they get shot in that area. Or whatever it is that releases the abandon of all concept of what the end product is going to be like, in a lot of the games I play. Anyway that basically explains a lot about me and probably a lot of other frustrated capable designers,that you are all to quick to flame. Now you might still be thinking "right that very nice,but what do you know about making games?" Now as I said I understand people so I can imagine why. Programmers are really the most skilled members and they do the most real work in the whole team. I can imagine if I was a talented programmer,who wasn''t really that good at design and some upstart, "I clocked halflife in 23 minutes,and I know everything about games and can make the bestest games ever ever." guy came along and actually got a job because he really was just like a straight creative genius,could just pop off stuff anytime for any engine and spec and it''d be the best.Only problem is he doesn''t know shit,I''ve got to mentor him,hold his hand,and at the same time the guy does nothing comparable to the effort I put in,yet gets a similar cut. I''d be livid. Now this is a worse case scenario,but I''m sure some where deep down there a lot of you are actually scared this could happen. It''s just an assumption based on posts but it''s my best guess for some of the attitude towards sole designers. Now where this leaves people like myself who are really nothing like that as far as attitude and dedication. Is that we have to resort to either posting a really good idea, here for the world too see.Or this Now as far as my change of lifestyle and why I came here. Basically the reason I can talk of kids who have great ideas but know nothing and need mentoring is because I''ve been there. I tried when I was 15-16 years old to get a job in a game company.I sent out letters to all my fav companies at the time. (I didn''t even know the difference between the developers and publishers back then ) Just giving off a load of hyperactive,teenage,I play games all the time,I''m a game design master,I rock,I just want a chance to break in and show my skillz,I''ll take anything coming to show you how much I rule,gopher jobs whatever. Needless to say no one replied. I can see why,but that is what really killed me. I always expected companies would kill for someone young like me but like I''ve said I was niave. They just wouldn''t have had the time to apprentice me or anything and anyway who says i wouldn''t get scared off. Back then anyway there where no real tester jobs,it was all small and it seemed like there where only ever a small group of a few testers,who we''re all some way literate in code. At the age of 13 I realised I was a natural musician. I had always sung but never really anything major,I just used to sing along to stuff and knew I had a pretty good voice. I picked up a guitar at this time,and as soon as I could get my fingers in position I realised I had a serious ear. I played in bands and gigged wrote material e.t.c. Then I grew up as I said around 16-17, I realised exactly how much effort it would take to be a really good musician,and being disgruntled with the games industry.I figured I''d give music a go seriously and try and get into games after I''d made some money off an album or two. The problem is when I started to think about it seriously I realised.I wanted too do something completly new,and break away from the rock bands I was in. It''s was just getting to the stage where there was some good music software on pc and affordable equipment.So I decided to ditch the band and learn production in an effort to eventually mastermind a vision I had of a live electronic band. the rest is non essential really so I''ll cut it short,I still want too make this band, but at the moment the state of the industry is such so that making any money out of music is silly without the most immense amount of control freakery,anyway I got good at production really good,and finally got the skills I needed,realised I was harder than I expected and was going to need more musicians of an exceptional calibre.So it isn''t going anywhere I don''t think about music commercially anymore I just do it cause I love it and try not to let it occupy my life. The reason this is important ,is because it explains why I got back into computers. Music production is hard,and something I wasn''t used too. It turned me from a complete I only use acid (the loop based music program) in case you get confused,and play games. To I eat oscillators and filters for breakfast and make my own litestep themes,case mod my computer.Live breathe P.C , I love computers now,I can find my way round any program first look.I learnt html (WYSIWYG) and flash web design,basic java-script to a damn fine standard,in 3 months. Because of this I know photoshop and illustrator, I did a lot of abstract experimental stuff with 3d,so I got too know a lot of things that aided me in finally understanding game development too a realistically competent level. Although the biggest step has been venturing,into understanding programming,and the real innerworking of making a game,from sites like this and gamasutra,and looking at game engines. Generally understanding concepts,mostly limitations. Stuff like culling,modeling,animation.You name it I at least have a clue. Which I didn''t really a year ago,not enough. Although you might think I want too be a team leader or something.I actually would rather just be a designer under a project lead,even if I funded the project. I just don''t like being out of my depth,and don''t want too make processes any longer by constant translation. Obviously if a programmer''s got a bug in thier code I''m not the man too ask,but I wouldn''t want too waste time by not knowing my medium. Now what the hell have I got wrong? I expect too come somewhere like here and really find at least a few peeps who have open minds. My idea was this All I want too do is make at least 5 of my ideas,that is my ambition.I''m working on a business plan now,too try and get enough cash to pay for dev of one title (Once again,I''m not talking bull,or talking chump change),but this is literally killing me.I am really better at business than game design,but the problems involved are killing me,I have next to no capital so avoiding getting ripped off is near impossible,and has lead to a nervous breakdown on my part over the complications. I thought I might have more luck trying to find a team that is capable of putting together a 1 level episiodic game from an commercial engine,and cut out all the bull.(capable programmers,who just want too cut thier teeth on something a bit simpler.) The engine would be licenced to us on a royalty based contract. (Lithtechs e.t.c) (what have they got to lose?.) I came up with an idea for a good episodic ,multiplayer game, distributed through the net with no publisher.A completly ground breaking set of stratagies for making money,all I needed was a some contacts with people,and then take it from there in an attempt to pull it together if it felt right. I''m also working on another business idea now which is why I say this is my last post,because I''d rather go out and make enough cash to entice talent,if it''s going too require this much effort just too find some capable people. I wouldn''t even care if people didn''t want too work on my idea,use my business model,We''d take a discision on the type of game we''d like,and I come up with a doc for that. I can pretty much design anything and make it quite a bit more innovative,without much hastle.(Ok IMHO I''d probably believe my idea was better because it wasn''t rushed.),but I could even make a very standard idea,into something very successful. It''s all about gameplay like I said obviously (like the music industry) if you havn''t got a really great package then just dress it up nice, and market it effectivly. Well I tried,I havn''t got time, it was a shot in the dark. I can''t afford jeopardising my business plan,just too end up sitting here 3 years from now still looking for people. I hope you get my points though, a lot are very good and the basis of my whole philosophy on the art of game design. So if you still can''t come up with original ideas,I doubt you will. No arrogance intended,it''s just it''s really specialised work (You must be able too relate to the market,which means it''s actually not that good to be too smart , or too 3li73) lol,I''m just refering to guys who frequent the board,and mostly the chan, who think you must be a loser if you don''t use redhat Anyway that''s it my rant is over. I have too work on my business plan. Business logic and game design are really very similar,but in business you are constantly competing,in areas you have little control over,finance,marketing,networking e.t.c. e.t.c In game design a good game is a good game,and I''ve had enough stress already for one lifetime.(I see music now as my hobby,there are other things that I''d be quite good at but my heart isn''t really in it,like advertising,marketing, philosophy,general inventing (I have quite a few things that need patents eventually) law...hehe,you''d understand why if you knew me,basically that''s why this is so long.) Anyway I believe,that if there''s anyone out there (I.E good programmers,who care more about thier heart, than thier pockets),this is the only way too get interest,without wasting anymore time. I''ve had enough of wasting my potential,I didn''t put in all this effort,when I should have been going out and getting laid ,just to not achieve anything,or at least get a good shot until I''m a tired old man.I just want too try and achieve my potential,and use my mind in a honest and worthwhile way. (once again my speeling is probably terrible,but I''m seriously tired now,this took well over an hour.So see my other post for a description of how much I care.) ..|. hehe. /action has left the building. "There''s so much to do, and a lot of you are wasting time. This is ART dagnammit! get creative or get buried."

Anonymous

January 10, 2002 04:05 PM

Artists are lazy?

You are congregating with the wrong artists. Web developers most likely, or possibly College Artists.

Get with a real artist. There are alot of lazy artists like their are alot of lazy programmers. Ive met and worked with both.

I wouldn''t make such broad statements about Artists.. we help make this industry what it is today. Would love to see what games would be today without artists around.

Anonymous

January 10, 2002 04:11 PM

"Damn right! Art time is free time. Plus, they never have to stick around till 6 in the morning to make sure a build goes off successfully. They''re strictly 40hr/wk types, well, minus the 2 hour lunch breaks at the pub."

Where the hell do you work? You ever seen the schedule of an artist at Disney, ILM, Dreamworks, Pixar, Lionhead, Blizzard, or any other REAl development studio?

I have worked PLENTY of 18 hour days to get art work completed on time... PLENTY. and if you have to stick around until 6 am to make sure a build gets done, maybe you should get to reading some better methods of programming.. or find a Project lead that can set realistic deadlines.

Not sure where your problems Lay, but either way, just because you write buggy code and need to stay up until 6 doesn''t mean an artist needs to stay with you.

If an artist works within his 40 hours and completes his job.. then kudos to him. Maybe he is just GOOD? never crossed your mind eh? That maybe someone doesn''t have to take a week to finish a simple task.

I hardly EVER hear that a game is released late due to art resources not being ready. Now who are the lazy ones? who is complaining about late hours? Not me.

Castillo

122

January 10, 2002 04:31 PM

Tacit: The job examples, in the other thread, highlight the problems with the various ways people can define the term ''Games Designer''. One companies ''Games Designer'' is anothers ''Level Designer'' or ''Level Builder'' or ''(insert x here)''.

Given the tone and content of the original post, this example would probably better fit aspiring ''Game Designers'' expectations:

http://www.codemasters.com/jobs/jobs_gamesdesigner.php

Tacit

122

January 10, 2002 04:38 PM

Castillo...exactly!

And your example at Codemasters is very interesting because it''s a game designer position with a fairly high level of influence (only reporting to a ''chief'' games designer''), and yet the job doesn''t require industry experience.

Thanks!

R.

_________________________The Idea Foundry

Kylotan

10,513

January 10, 2002 05:02 PM

quote: Original post by Kwizatz
the reason designer wanna be''s get flamed around here is ... that a designer is like a movie director, everyone wants to be a movie director, and anyone thinks they could direct a movie, thats why there are so many self called directors, that have never done the job of a stand in, well, good directors know how to operate a camera, know how to act, know how to edit, etc etc, they dont just direct, they have to be involved in all levels.

Yeah... to rephrase that, the wanna-be designers are the people who want to make all the decisions and see their vision, without ever having to do their work. Like an artist who never wants to touch a paintbrush or pencil. But somehow they seem to think that their ideas are good enough.

The reason a wannabe programmer gets help and a wannabe designer gets flamed, is because most wannabe programmers are willing to get their hands dirty and actually try and create something. Wannabe designers just like to complain about how they are undervalued.

As you said, a good designer is one who will dip into the other disciplines and actually get involved. It is just a shame that so many people just like to complain that "the industry" rejects them or whatever, instead of pitching in to make a difference for themselves.

[ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost ]

Symphonic

313

January 10, 2002 05:05 PM

quote: Original post by Muzikus
...I see myself as having a gift...I would find making games easy...I started to become serious...trying to draw levels and traps...I was a smart dreamer who had talent...I knew nothing of programming...I was hopelessly inept in maths,and physics...getting kicked out for being disruptive and generally non conformist...I''ve had enough of wasting my potential...my speeling is probably terrible...

You''re funny!

More importantly, I should reiterate what''s been said so far, but by the looks of your post it would be a waste of time.

I think that my only fresh comment is that you are not in a position to talk about closed minds.

George D. Filiotis
Are you in support of the ban of Dihydrogen Monoxide? You should be!

Geordi
George D. Filiotis

Anonymous

January 11, 2002 02:02 AM

Hehe this guy thinks hes good at everything:

"I''m a game design master"

"At the age of 13 I realised I was a natural musician."

"I can pretty much design anything"

...I doubt all of these.

Myopic Rhino

2,383

January 11, 2002 02:29 AM

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
Artists are lazy?

I got the impression that he was kidding, but I could be wrong.

The artists where I work are there as much as the programmers. In fact, I called once called in sick at 3 am on a Monday, expecting to leave a message, and was surprised when one of our artists answered.

MadKeithV

992

January 11, 2002 02:53 AM

On the perennial Artists vs Programmers thread: I''m a Comp. Scientist, with a bit of artistic talent. I''d MUCH rather do the programming than the art on a game project - the amount of skill and creativity needed for good artwork is humongous compared to programming. You can always keep the manual handy, and if you are even a half-arsed programmer, you''ll get the job done (slowly). However, with art, you have it or you don''t. Some artists REALLY have it, and come up with stuff so quickly you''d THINK they are lazy because they always go home on time. That''s just because they know what they are doing