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I have no more time for closed minds,here's a key.Hope it fits. ;)

Started by January 09, 2002 11:07 PM
106 comments, last by Muzikus 22 years, 11 months ago
quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
Artists out number Programmers 2 to 1 AT LEAST.


That''s because they are lazy



-------------Ban KalvinB !
Damn right! Art time is free time. Plus, they never have to stick around till 6 in the morning to make sure a build goes off successfully. They''re strictly 40hr/wk types, well, minus the 2 hour lunch breaks at the pub. Take that! FLAME-O-RAMA! Here''s the thing, yes artists are an important part of any great game. They make it look pretty and allow the programmers to keep their attention pointed at how the game works and not at the fluff around the edges. Same with producers and the necessary evil known as management, who do the least but usually get their names planted firmly at the top of the credits list (the managers that is). Then you''ve got your testers who without the world would be filled with complete crap...guess Westwood will finally have to buck up the $7 an hour to get a few. Emperor Dune...what were they thinking?! That set them back 5 years behind Blizzard easily. Of course, since Blizzard isn''t ever going to release another game due to their "it''s done when it''s done" attitude, I guess it isn''t all that bad for Westwood.

Bill6
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I''m very, very close to closing this. Muzikus, while I can understand that you are frustrated, a topic this long and containing so many inflammatory statements nearly invites trouble.

I have seen some constructive replies and pretty even handed criticisms in response, however. Let''s keep this the trend.

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
Muzikus, just put down some of your design docs here and wait, at least its better than complaining!
I read part of your post and read the replies, so I get the gist of what was said. Anyway, I ''ll not say anything more but leave you with a quote that my high school computer teahcer told us:

There are three types of people in the world:

Those who make things happen.
Those who watch what happens.
Those that wonder what is happening.

Stop complaining, figure out which one you are and if you don''t like, change it. You are the only person who controls your career in life, not everone else.


---
Make it work.
Make it fast.

"Commmmpuuuuterrrr.." --Scotty Star Trek IV:The Voyage Home
"None of us learn in a vacuum; we all stand on the shoulders of giants such as Wirth and Knuth and thousands of others. Lend your shoulders to building the future!" - Michael Abrash[JavaGaming.org][The Java Tutorial][Slick][LWJGL][LWJGL Tutorials for NeHe][LWJGL Wiki][jMonkey Engine]
I''ve often noticed that people tend to complain the most when they don''t feel like getting anything done.

First off, realize that you aren''t the best in the world at game design, because it doesn''t sound like you''ve ever really designed a game (thinking "this would be cool", and actually writing a game, where you have to concern yourself with things as "can this be done on anything less than a 1.2 GHz" are two totally different things). And how do statements such as "most of you guys have no ******* clue" make ANYONE want to help you? One thing you''ll need to learn before you do anything is a little bit of tact... because if nobody likes you, nobody will work with you, and unless you code and do the art yourself, you''ll NEVER get your game done.

Regardless, I wish you the best of luck. I personally enjoy the design aspect the most, as well (as I''m sure most people here do), but I''m also an accomplished programmer and artist. Are my ideas the best? As far as I''m concerned, yes they are (and that''s all that really matters). Will everyone like them? No, but hopefully a lot of people will.

Now onto the programmer vs artist thing. I do both (I''ve been programming for 17 years, and doing art for about the same. I''ve been heavily into computer graphics since ''94, getting extremely good at almost every 2D art program, and reasonably good at 3DS Max). You want the truth? THEY''RE BOTH DIFFICULT!!! Frankly, I probably spend more time getting the art to look right than I do with the programming. I''m not saying that the programming isn''t difficult (especially as you try to tie your design into your actual code while not having it get convoluted as heck), but the art is difficult for entirely different reasons. For those who sit there and talk about how they''re better than the other because they program (or they do the art), try learning and doing the other thing, and come back talking about how cool you are. And you programmers can say "well, ANYONE can draw a sprite for a game -- it won''t look good, but it will work", the same holds true for programming -- ANYONE could write a basic game with the right books (or just downloading code from online), but it takes a true programmer to make it work well.

-Chris
---<<>>--- Chris Rouillard Software Engineercrouilla@hotmail.com
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did your mother made a good job with you!!!!

the reason designer wanna be''s get flamed around here is simple, there is the %80 programmer population for one thing, and the real reason I see is that a designer is like a movie director, everyone wants to be a movie director, and anyone thinks they could direct a movie, thats why there are so many self called directors, that have never done the job of a stand in, well, good directors know how to operate a camera, know how to act, know how to edit, etc etc, they dont just direct, they have to be involved in all levels.

Same thing, you cant just claim you are great because "you know how things work", no programmer will ever want to work with someone that does not know how to start up a debugging session at least, because there is no respect for that person in a proffesional level, the best designers you will find, in my opinion, are the ones that have a programming background, which seems to be the area you are neglecting.

I also have a bussines plan, the difference? I am working in it rather than complaining.

How ironic, I decided to come back and check this thread and look what I found on the front page:

quote: Joe DiMaggio
If you keep thinking about what you want to do or what you hope will happen, you don''t do it, and it won''t happen.
------When thirsty for life, drink whisky. When thirsty for water, add ice.
I thought that after reading this thread, I would be able to resist posting. I know it is better for my health and my company if I do not post but there is this pulling, tugging thing in my head that is forcing my fingers to type. Can''t explain it, not going to fight it. So here goes.

Game designer positions only come to experienced game developers(artists, producers, or programmers). Its pretty simple when you think about existing game development houses. As people have said, everyone in the industry has a "great idea" which means that the staff of 60 they hired to do their last game, probably has 50 - 60 additional game ideas. Why would a company pay you, without experience, when they have 50 - 60 possibilities that are nearly free for the taking in their existing employees? Doesn''t make sense. Besides, they have a first hand knowledge of their chance with an existing employee''s idea, whereas you''re asking them to take a chance on your idea. As a C-Team member of a development company, that would go against my fiduciary duty to the company to blatantly put its assets at such a tremendous risk without being able to "prove" to my Board of Directors why it is a good idea to listen to you. Its an incredibly uphill battle that most people really have no way of winning without that experience.

The only way around this scenario is starting your own development company. While it seems easy, I can tell you from first hand experience it is not. You''ll have human resource issues, bills to organize, articles to file, board meetings to arrange, taxes to pay and business plans to write. All of this instantly takes away from your time to design. Either way in the end you''re going to need to have people that believe in your product and people that you can trust to get the job done. This requires teamwork, trust, organization, and tact.

Muzikus: Frankly I didn''t read all of your post because it was a sore to the eyes in its formatting and its grammar. You lost 50% of your meaning in the presentation of the overly long article. Based on the replies, if you feel you can do better than everyone else, you have one of two options. 1) Start your own company like you have indicated you were doing, build a demo, get funding, and do it. or 2) Get an entry level position in the industry and methodically work your way up to the position you''re striving for. There really is no other way. No matter which way you opt for, you will find that somewhere along the line you are going to have to "walk the talk" and prove to someone that what you designed is worthy of their consideration. No one is going to give you the benefit of the doubt, especially where money is concerned. Doing so is about as big of a business mistake as there is for any industry, not just games. Hang in there, stay determined in the face of adversity and see your ideas through. Good Luck.

Sincerely
Derek Licciardi
a.k.a. Kressilac


ps When you type into the dialog box, do not press enter between lines. That''s probably the issue with your post. Only press enter when changing paragraphs.
Derek Licciardi (Kressilac)Elysian Productions Inc.
Seems we have to do this again.

Why couldn''t Musikus get an entry-level game designer position?

Before you tell me they don''t exist, kressilac, read this thread.

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=73752

_________________________The Idea Foundry

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