Lance_Dev said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you realized you couldn't get satisfaction after he deleted his product, you went ahead and purchased almost all of his products, and started review-bombing them, posting your rant in the comments section under every single one of them.

Woof, that is not right.

Sounds like this was a detail the OP left out.

I would call that harassment.

This is an indie dev your complaining to, not a company.

Just because you pay for something, and are not satisfied with it, doesn't give you the right for unlimited customer support. Nor should you be buying things you don't use, just to leave bad reviews.

Reviews are removed online all the time, normally a user can't remove them himself, if the platform admins can if they have cause. Did you read the Review guidelines? The Tos always say they can remove any content at their discretion if it it breaks rules or they see fit.

People want to hear reviews of services and products, not a review of the individual selling them.

I had this happen to me, I had posted on a forum, they got upset about something I said, and they came to my site to review bomb me and give me 1 star, linking to the convo, and saying I was a bad person. I contacted the admin of my platform and had those reviews removed, because they were reviewing my conduct, not my product.

You wouldn't appreciate it if after seeing your behavior here, went to your site, and gave bad reviews of your engine, because they didn't like what you said here.

You effectively made it personal, to the extent where the dev removed his work from the workshop. You act like he did so just to spite you. Where it sounds like he may have done so because you harried him to much.

You are entitled to your opinion, and sharing your experience, yes, but you are not entitled to go on crusades to get your view across.

Programmer71 said:

I get email notice about this thread, i resist to comment, but ,man, get a life , you have spent 20+ years on something that you are now slowly realizing it was not worth it, nobody cares about your game, nobody cares about your game engine, for fuck sake , understand this

We do indeed get emails, but this is a bit too harsh IMO.

Experience is what you make of it.

I spent 7-8 years on one project. And I learned a lot about myself. gained experience, gained connections. Maybe the OP can look at it that way too. Yes it defined my life, and it sounds like his engine defines his life too.

Weather it's worth it, is something only he can decide himself.

The question he has is to what to do next.

IMO Sounds like the OP needs some distance from his own work.

It wasn't until another person I trusted put things in perspective, did I see my project for what it was. That I was really caring the entire team, and most of the others were not really contributing.

Sometimes life has a way of forcing you to take a break, causing you to revaluate what you really want. Asking you if you didn't have this project, who you'd be. making you take a vacation. Don't ignore those times. It's very tempting to justify it to yourself, that if you just worked harder, it would achieve the level of success your looking for to make you happy.

Maybe try picking up a new hobby?

Maybe do some volunteering?

Maybe focus on friends or family?

Maybe take a vacation?

I know,

I know it's not fair, you've worked so long and so hard, and it's not the same anymore. It's not what you expected.

@programmer71 is right to some degree, most people don't care. Most people will never give your engine the time of day. And it's not because of anything you did, most likely. It's because your trying to upset the status quoe And people don't like that, because they have to risk something.

Programmer71 said:
I think you are not functional to this society, people do not really care about you unless they consider you someone who is capabale to add value to their assets, life is competition, and the weaker get eaten by the strongest, live with that.

nobody will consider helping you unless they feel that the help given contributes to their success.

nobody cares about your game, nobody cares about your game engine, for fuck sake , understand this

I find your point of view on life really, really disgusting and disturbing. With your attitude I'm not surprised you don't have anyone to help you out of pure kindness, you're just a terrible person treating others like shit. Human relations are - what you give is what you get. If you want a better life, start by changing yourself to be a better person. Here's an unsubscribe button for you. Good luck and good bye. Please don't come again.

Josh Klint said:
I don't know if you've talked to a lot of people at conferences or gamedev groups, but the response I always got when I told people I had a new engine was basically “fuck you”. This is without even knowing what engine I was talking about, what features it had, etc., their decision was already made and nothing I could say would ever change that, before I even started talking.

I know exactly what you feel ?

GeneralJist said:
What if a x years from now you read a news update here or somewhere else, saying this tech is the hot new thing, and people are building games on it, and it's overtaking epic?

That will be great news. Like I said before, the world needs more competition. It's better for everyone. For user choice and for innovation.

I cheer for Josh and wish he can do it. For me I'm happy to focus on finishing my games right now.

GeneralJist said:
And no, the guy in my situation left because he had unreasonable expectations of his place in the organization, he thought he could come in and decide the vision, after he literally abandoned the vision.

I don't think so. He had some conditions for joining your project. The conditions weren't met, so he didn't join.

You can't just expect people to come aboard and follow whatever your vision without their own input, that's just like having a mindless worker. Sure people go find jobs and do something they don't like, but in that case the money they get in return should balance that. It was his own decision, evaluated on his own dreams/wishes, goals, so you should respect it, and just move on.

GeneralJist said:
Sounds like this was a detail the OP left out.

I didn't, I wrote everything at the start:

esenthel said:
So I've shared my frustration and experiences with this developer and his assets on the user reviews section for other products/stores I've bought from him. To warn other people what they're getting into and hoping the developer would send me fixes that other people got but I didn't.

GeneralJist said:
This is an indie dev your complaining to, not a company.

Doesn't matter if indie, company, cow, chicken or alien. Bad service = bad experience = bad review.

Btw. From my experiences indie devs on average are way better at providing service than companies. Indies treat you like an equal, like a human, and they're trying to help out. Some even go above and beyond what you'd expect, one developer was providing even too much support ? Companies on other hand think they're bigger than you, they're after bigger customers, and don't care for you, just take your money and bye.

GeneralJist said:
Just because you pay for something, and are not satisfied with it, doesn't give you the right for unlimited customer support.

Of course I don't have a right for unlimited customer support, but I think I have a right to post a review and share my experiences.

GeneralJist said:
Nor should you be buying things you don't use, just to leave bad reviews.

I didn't do that. I've bought models because I want to use them in my games. Since I was unhappy with what the developer did, I've shared that in my reviews.

GeneralJist said:
People want to hear reviews of services and products, not a review of the individual selling them.

If that was true then my reviews wouldn't have been at the top of “most helpful” review in the review section, but they were, before they got deleted. People were agreeing, only Epic wasn't, because it meant smaller profits for them.

Reviews are nothing more than sharing your experiences, which is exactly what I did.

For me when buying a product, is important:

• price
• design
• quality
• bugs/problems
• support level
• how fast developer can respond
• is he friendly
• can he fix problems
• etc.

If a product is average, but support is great, I rate higher.

But if service is terrible (rude, unresponsive, blocks you/deletes products/prevents from getting updates, making you lose money) then yes, negative review is 100% well deserved.

Support and developer attitude is a crucial and integral part of any review. If you don't agree with that, sorry, I don't believe you.

I don't think I've done anything wrong, I was friendly to him, praised his work, offered my assistance in solving the problems, shared my knowledge. etc. Instead of getting some appreciation for my purchases and help, I got blocked. That is not right. And after sharing what happened, my experiences got deleted. That is double not right.

GeneralJist said:
Weather it's worth it, is something only he can decide himself.

I'm 100% satisfied with my engine technologically, and 0% satisfied financially ?

GeneralJist said:
The question he has is to what to do next.

Focusing on my games, very excited and motivated! Like - very very much ?

GeneralJist said:
Sometimes life has a way of forcing you to take a break, causing you to revaluate what you really want. Asking you if you didn't have this project, who you'd be. making you take a vacation. Don't ignore those times. It's very tempting to justify it to yourself, that if you just worked harder, it would achieve the level of success your looking for to make you happy.

I agree with what you're saying. Sometimes it's difficult to do that. Now we have a baby in our life. I'm trying really hard to help out my family and solve some problems for us. I'm feeling pressure and can't be at peace because of that. For me health is most important. So I'm focusing on my efforts so the baby can grow up in a healthy environment. I'll be at peace once I achieved that.

Until that time, I'll have to keep on working hard.

Cheers!

esenthel said:
That will be great news. Like I said before, the world needs more competition. It's better for everyone. For user choice and for innovation. I cheer for Josh and wish he can do it. For me I'm happy to focus on finishing my games right now.

I really should be betting others, so I actually get the money….

You reacted exactly as I predicted.

You didn't even reach out to him directly did you? To just have a more personal conversation?

sigh…

esenthel said:
I don't think so. He had some conditions for joining your project. The conditions weren't met, so he didn't join. You can't just expect people to come aboard and follow whatever your vision without their own input, that's just like having a mindless worker. Sure people go find jobs and do something they don't like, but in that case the money they get in return should balance that. It was his own decision, evaluated on his own dreams/wishes, goals, so you should respect it, and just move on.

No, you don't understand the situation.

He wanted to add 2 new factions to the RTS game we were planning. That is not a realistic request by any measure.

We spent way more time in him, drafting up guidelines, to make sure the past didn't repeat. We showed this to him, and he agreed. He should have felt grateful that we were even willing to work with him again after what he did. (He threatened to delete everything way back when). The vision we had was basically very similar to what his vision was 10 years ago. He did not understand his place in the organization.

Also, from your response, it's clear you've never been a part of a team before. Especially a game dev one.

The vision of the game is decided by leadership. Members sign onto it when you recruit them. The members in question do not get to decide the vision. Sure, their contributions influence it, but if they are not leadership, they are meant to follow. They are given tasks, and they complete them when and how they choose. If they are being compensated, that is also factored in. The regular member does not get to decide fundamental changes. Suggest? yes, but decide? no.

I really think working on or with a team would benefit you.

esenthel said:
agree with what you're saying. Sometimes it's difficult to do that. Now we have a baby in our life. I'm trying really hard to help out my family and solve some problems for us. I'm feeling pressure and can't be at peace because of that. For me health is most important. So I'm focusing on my efforts so the baby can grow up in a healthy environment. I'll be at peace once I achieved that.

You do realize that having a healthy environment for your kid is an ongoing never ending thing. Maybe when they are 18….

indie game dev is most likely not going to be able to provide the type of stability and income you need. Your focus should be on exactly what you say, not on chasing some dream, even if you've spent 20 years doing it.

You might need to buccal down, and get a stable day job to provide for your kid and your wife.

If you didn't already, you should draft a resume with all the skills and experiences you've gained. And what you are most competent at.

Sounds like you and they are expecting you to provide, and “be the bread winner”, I don't think building a your own game engine company or building your own game should be in any of your top priorities right now.

Remember, how I said your engine is like a 20 year old?

Well, you now have an actual baby, and you know.

Bing a parent is the most important and hardest job, and it never really ends.

You need to work for someone else for a while, let them worry about overhead, marketing, customer service etc. etc.

I know it's scary, this engine is all you've known for 20 years, and you want to take it to the next level, by building a company and games around it. But it will still be here in 18 years, right? I'm not asking to give up on your dream, I'm asking you to shift your dream to that child of yours. If you can be as dedicated to your kid as much as you've done for your engine, than they should be fine.

We naturally want it all, but no one gets it all. The Dream, The Romantic Relationship, The Kid, pick two. And come back to the 3rd later.

Hope this helps put things in perspective for you.

GeneralJist said:
You didn't even reach out to him directly did you? To just have a more personal conversation?

Josh Klint said:
I've followed your stuff in the past and if things work out with my new tech, I will happily offer you a job working on a revolutionary new game engine technology, if that is interesting to you.

The offer is to work on Josh's game engine, I think that's pretty clear. I'm very happy to hear from him, but I want to focus on finishing my games.

GeneralJist said:
No, you don't understand the situation.

Alright, I don't know the exact details. But I still think you should just let it go and not keep it in your memory. It all depends on the balance of what you give and what you get, and what you want. People and their goals are different, we have to accept that.

GeneralJist said:
indie game dev is most likely not going to be able to provide the type of stability and income you need

yes, I'm aware of the challenges ? I'm still hopeful though. I've made some game before (that one took me around 6 months to make), it made some money, not much, not small.

So, if I make better game, the hope is that it should bring better money ?

Doing my best. We have just enough money to live by, so I think to try with the games, it's an acceptable risk.

There are some success stories, there's always a chance to get lucky and get something big. I would like to try.

I like to be optimistic, and keep trying and trying until you succeed! Don't give up and keep on fighting.

GeneralJist said:
Bing a parent is the most important and hardest job, and it never really ends.

Oh boy, my words exactly ? I never knew it is this hard!

Thanks for your message, appreciate it.

I'm not saying you won't be successful, I'm saying your chasing a dream. Where before you were likely supporting yourself, your now expected to support a kid. Spending your time to risk to make your own indie game, no matter your skills and experience would not be the responsible thing to do in my opinion. Your also doin it alone, with no team to support you.

What if this indie game fails? and you don't have enough money to support your family adequately?

The time you spend on your indie game could be spent on something else more stable, and less risky.

You should be thinking about what is the best decision for your family right now, not what will bring you more satisfaction personally.

esenthel said:
The offer is to work on Josh's game engine, I think that's pretty clear. I'm very happy to hear from him, but I want to focus on finishing my games.

I don't know how far you are in your own games, but by the time your done, the offer might be gone.

He put the ball in your court.

You acknowledge you need to work with others, and when some one offers to work wit you, you balk. And retreat.

Your too afraid to actually do it, because that is change, and then your also working for someone else, which from what I've seen from you you'd have a hard time doing.

In my opinion, to provide the kind of stable healthy future you say you want, you need to work for someone else, on a team, for a while.

If you don't. and continue down this path, then you will have no one else to blame if it doesn't work out. And where before, you were only responsible for yourself, you are now responsible for your wife and a kid. You need to be dam confident in your own abilities to gamble all your lives on the outcome of your engine and games.

Regret is what kills us later in life, regret for missed opportunities, and alternate paths we could have taken in life.

Just be sure you commit.

I have no stake in this race, I just want people to live good lives.

When I see people like you faced with change, and their solution is too keep steady on their course, hoping and praying it will work out, they have to understand the consequences. I'm getting the impression, your thinking, well, my approach has worked for 20 years, it will be fine for the next 20. …

I'll stop now,

Whatever you decide, be prepared to live with the consequences.

GeneralJist said:
You acknowledge you need to work with others, and when some one offers to work wit you, you balk. And retreat.

In the other thread I posted about looking for someone who could come and help to promote Esenthel Engine and make it more popular. Here I've got an offer to be a programmer on another game engine. These are 2 totally different things ? I'm looking for A, not for B.

Regarding the games development. I appreciate your concern, but no need to be so serious/pessimistic. Need to have a little hope ? I can go do some online job for another person/company, and -lose my creative freedom -get some money. Or I can invest my time and make games, and -keep my creative freedom, -get some money, smaller or bigger, with a chance to get lucky and make a lot. Option number 2 sounds a lot better.

Yes, I want to say this for other indie game developers - This is risky business and you may not get the income you're hoping for, be prepared for that. Also development time can take much longer than you initially think, and you might encounter so many other unexpected problems. Danger! ?

But my case is different. As I said we do have some income, so I can invest my time without feeling I'm risking anything. I've already made games before, I know what to expect. My one game is in final steps of development. Another game is already long time in the works.

Alright,

Sorry if I come off so preachy, I was just thinking, if I wasn't gay, I'd likely have a whole host of concerns about family that would dissuade me from running an indie start up with my life.

Good luck.

Yeah, it's good to have concerns, I understand very well ? My wife actually likes video games, in the past she has played some online RPG's, pokemons, so she's excited with my work the same as me. She will help me with some creative input and game design ideas.

Thanks and good luck to you too! ?

@Esenthel, have you considered making a stripped down, laser focused version of your engine? something that caters to a specific niche and gives all possible support for that? there's the MMO part of Esenthel that's neat, but MMOs are big endeavors as is and companies will always look for products from big corps with tons of professional support.

Competing for attention with all the giants on the “general purpose game engine” is an uphill battle on a saturated market: you'd have to offer something better than Stride, Flax, Cocos, a hundred javascript frameworks and a thousand small game engine projects on github. It also traps possible users into the choice paralysis dilemma (if everything can do everything, what do you choose and how do you start?).

RPGMaker and RenPy survive and thrive based on this: 90% of what you can do on either of then you could do on Unity or GMS, but it's so easy to start and the templates makes so fast to make something with “content” (quality is arguable, but you can make a small RPG or visual novel in a week and replace the generic assets later), that it becomes more appealing to some demographics than the colossal ammount of options you have (and can't choose not to have) in a complex engine.

If you look around, there are some genres that don't have good streamlined and focused tools yet:

• Platform games can be made in any engine, but i think only pixel maker MV (that has a weird license IIRC) focuses only on it. and with things like Super Mario Maker and the fan project Mega Man maker being as popular as they are, there's a market there for a minimum-friction side scrolling game maker
  
• There's a “fire emblem clone maker” in SRPG studio, but it has a million of stupid asset size and format restrictions that don't focus anything, just hinders the effort.
• I've never heard of engines made specifically for RTS that wasn't abandoned long ago
• i've never heard of an engine made specifically for 3d racing games at all
• you got the idea.

I may sound as dumbing down esenthel, but if you look at it from a different angle, a more focused tool would make you stand out in the crowd

Hi ouraf, and thanks very much for sharing your ideas.

Well to be honest I never thought about making the engine focused only on specific tasks. I'm a person who thinks globally, universally, by that I mean, I always wanted to create a general purpose solution. I did not want to limit my engine, instead I wanted to do the exact opposite, and make it as flexible as possible, allowing you to do anything you want. I thought that would be a good thing. I still believe that's a good thing, however just can't compete with other big companies at this time.

And now, thinking about it, I wouldn't want to go that route. I'm idealistic. What I want, is to create something that's the best. So how can it be the best if it's limited to only specific functions. That's against who I am, I always strive for perfection.

So my decision was made is to focus on games development, and during that process, I'll be adding to the engine whatever I'll need for development of the games. From the engine perspective, I think that's a good choice. The engine needs some promotion, a showcase of a great game to show its full potential. And the things that I'll be adding, will benefit other developers using my engine as well.

Thanks again! ?