2 minutes ago, Unknown33 said:

His uneducated father built low income apartment buildings. Trump shadowed his father and picked up the business sense from him.

Trump was solid upper middle class to start out with, but he was not a sophisticate. Certainly not aristocratic. He attended a very affluent business school and learned to act the part.

It took a lot of smooth talking and clever dealing for him to break into some of the killer deals he landed in his prime. Luck played a huge part. But nobody ever wanted to do him any favors and often he struggled in vain for years before a deal fell through.

New York in his day was having tremendous financial troubles and property values were fluctuating wildly. Many people lost their shirts in that city in those days.

If you reduce your understanding of history and reality to little sound bytes that sound good politically, but make no sense outside of the hyperbolic realm of gotcha quotes and snarky snippets, you're missing out.

Like I said, disagreeing with others is not justification for vivisecting the Constitution and US law to eradicate the egalitarianistic electoral college, which guarantees that smaller voices are also heard (the absolute core of the Democratic worldview). 

I empathize with what it is like to be the party out of power and to be frustrated with the man in the chair, though. Just focus on something besides politics for a while and be sure to rally up come election year, that's all you can do.

He had enough money as a college kid to publish pictures of himself laying seductively in Vanity Fair while touting how high society his family was, then got himself put on the Forbes 500 without actually presenting evidence.

Sounds like a regular Joe Six-Pack to me.

6 minutes ago, krb said:

He had enough money as a college kid to publish pictures of himself laying seductively in Vanity Fair while touting how high society his family was, then got himself put on the Forbes 500 without actually presenting evidence.

Sounds like a regular Joe Six-Pack to me.

I'll check back tomorrow to see if you've decided to address any of the realities I presented to you. I personally see nothing to respond to in this post. Take care.

40 minutes ago, Unknown33 said:

I'll check back tomorrow to see if you've decided to address any of the realities I presented to you. I personally see nothing to respond to in this post. Take care.

I will say this, he's good for art and weeds out all the hack comedians who can't be funnier than our current reality, but quoting puff pieces the figurehead of the country published about himself isn't really a debate.  He is the walking embodiment of the antithesis of everything you are making him out to be and really strove to be that his entire life, just because he says "it's not what I have said it was for my entire life" doesn't make it true.  Also, no one outside of a cartoon has ever said "I'm famous for my mental stability" before, and even there it would probably end bad.  He also didn't win the popular vote, his inauguration was the least attended in recent history and he openly colluded with foreign entities to influence the US election, all things which he also denies up and down, as well as those who support him, but things that are evident to those with eyes. 

It was the same with Obama, his base would get upset when he would be criticized as well.  Same with the guy before him and so on.  We have a representative democracy that has devolved into divisive cults of personality on the surface and both side laughing together and lining their own pockets at the end of the day.  It's like the wolf and the sheep dog on Looney Toons, they are at eachother's throat all day then clock out and are pals.  Trump and the Clintons attended each other's kids weddings and took photos together.  Working people did make some gains in the country after the depression all the way up to around the 70's then things started to turn around and income inequality has grown since then.  Despite what many claim the free market doesn't care about people and companies would pay you nothing if they could, laws like minimum wage are the only thing stopping them from doing so, but keeping the wages stagnant compared to inflation then keeping legislation stagnant so it can't catch up is how the clock is being turned back, in addition to every war we have ever fought having corporate interests at heart.  Showing undying loyalty to any megalomaniac that is swindling the general public is against most people's interest no matter what color tie (or pantsuit) they wear, yet most people do so and will continue to do so because it's easy.

I study history and anthropology and in my opinion the US is on the decline and Donald Trump has all the characteristics of other leaders that were the final nail in the coffin of large empires.  Not to say that he is the cause of the inevitable collapse, just a symptom of it, although I do think the country is at considerably more risk for disaster with him as our official spokesman and having any form of executive power.  One of Obama's last interviews while in office was about the Dakota Access Pipe Line protests, when told that there were American citizens and tribal members on their own reservation being assaulted on land that is under federal jurisdiction by private security forces he said "Uh, yeah, it's happening, and uh, it's gonna continue to happen" and no one batted an eye to a response that was just as bad as anything Trump has said, and it was because they were upset Trump was going into the office next so they felt they needed to lionize their side.  Partisan politics has killed America and has made otherwise reasonable people blind themselves to reality and turn their back on their own convictions while simultaneously projecting them places where they aren't.  Nothing is more indicative of this than the undying Evangelical support of a man whose campaign slogan was a graphic description of sexual assault, going so far as to even claim he has some sort of divine inspiration.  It's only going to get worse before it gets better. 

OK, OP, let's clarify this. I understand, that you want live in rule "We can have only 2 views. My own and wrong." But...

What do you think about immigration at all? I think it's not OK, when you want leave your home land and invade another one. It's abusing of good feelings. You can sell your experience, brain's and hand's for another country. You can get job offer or contract, OK. You can make world tour, as musicians, OK. But invading.... I'm not nazi, but not far-left too. Make your country great, why not.

7 hours ago, krb said:

I will say this, he's good for art and weeds out all the hack comedians who can't be funnier than our current reality, but quoting puff pieces the figurehead of the country published about himself isn't really a debate.  He is the walking embodiment of the antithesis of everything you are making him out to be and really strove to be that his entire life, just because he says "it's not what I have said it was for my entire life" doesn't make it true.  Also, no one outside of a cartoon has ever said "I'm famous for my mental stability" before, and even there it would probably end bad.  He also didn't win the popular vote, his inauguration was the least attended in recent history and he openly colluded with foreign entities to influence the US election, all things which he also denies up and down, as well as those who support him, but things that are evident to those with eyes. 

It was the same with Obama, his base would get upset when he would be criticized as well.  Same with the guy before him and so on.  We have a representative democracy that has devolved into divisive cults of personality on the surface and both side laughing together and lining their own pockets at the end of the day.  It's like the wolf and the sheep dog on Looney Toons, they are at eachother's throat all day then clock out and are pals.  Trump and the Clintons attended each other's kids weddings and took photos together.  Working people did make some gains in the country after the depression all the way up to around the 70's then things started to turn around and income inequality has grown since then.  Despite what many claim the free market doesn't care about people and companies would pay you nothing if they could, laws like minimum wage are the only thing stopping them from doing so, but keeping the wages stagnant compared to inflation then keeping legislation stagnant so it can't catch up is how the clock is being turned back, in addition to every war we have ever fought having corporate interests at heart.  Showing undying loyalty to any megalomaniac that is swindling the general public is against most people's interest no matter what color tie (or pantsuit) they wear, yet most people do so and will continue to do so because it's easy.

I study history and anthropology and in my opinion the US is on the decline and Donald Trump has all the characteristics of other leaders that were the final nail in the coffin of large empires.  Not to say that he is the cause of the inevitable collapse, just a symptom of it, although I do think the country is at considerably more risk for disaster with him as our official spokesman and having any form of executive power.  One of Obama's last interviews while in office was about the Dakota Access Pipe Line protests, when told that there were American citizens and tribal members on their own reservation being assaulted on land that is under federal jurisdiction by private security forces he said "Uh, yeah, it's happening, and uh, it's gonna continue to happen" and no one batted an eye to a response that was just as bad as anything Trump has said, and it was because they were upset Trump was going into the office next so they felt they needed to lionize their side.  Partisan politics has killed America and has made otherwise reasonable people blind themselves to reality and turn their back on their own convictions while simultaneously projecting them places where they aren't.  Nothing is more indicative of this than the undying Evangelical support of a man whose campaign slogan was a graphic description of sexual assault, going so far as to even claim he has some sort of divine inspiration.  It's only going to get worse before it gets better. 

 

Your entire post resembles sincerity but the GIF demonstrates antipathy. We get it. Losing isn't fun. Better luck next time around.

14 hours ago, Unknown33 said:

Well when your position is demonstrably hyperbole I'm not sure it's cogent to respond sincerely, and since I have no desire to engage in a hyperbolic rhetorical exchange based on arbitrary political affiliations, I will simply wish you a good rest of your day.

You literally just posted something without offering anything to the statement. Opinions are opinions, but you've literally just posited a claim "Trump's a good president" without any substance to back it up. Now you're claiming that @ChaosEngine's (and I'm assuming many of those who think Trump is a moron and a racist) position is demonstrably hyperbole. That's a rather sweeping statement to make when your first statement has nothing to back it up nor any criticisms of what's hyperbole. 

9 hours ago, Unknown33 said:

but at the other hand, we have a path where we can objectively examine what actually matters,

I think myself and others on this thread have done pretty much that. It seems that to you those things don't matter, for whatever reason. At the minimum, in posting here you've chosen to pretty much ignore what others and myself have posted about.

9 hours ago, Unknown33 said:

and see that Trump's victory has given a large number of people a renewed sense of hope that a small, unelected aristocracy of wealthy celebrities, business moguls and media figureheads don't own the free world. That's something everyone should be celebrating.

No I don't celebrate that. And neither do a large number of people. Because of what Trump's rhetoric and more moronic policies have meant. Because of what they represent. For many of us, the fact that something like Trump can be elected and can be continued to allowed to govern the way he does, is absolutely frightening. There is no 'hyperbole' in what Trump has said and done. Those are facts. You can spin them however you want, but facts do not change.

This isn't a case of people simply ignoring Trump's greatness, it's more of a case of people ignoring and in some cases supporting his glaring and obvious problems. Trump should not represent renewed hope in any sense of the term. The man doesn't give a damn about anyone except for his own skin. That is also demonstrable fact from his long and checkered history of conning people. What's more telling is how he's conned people into thinking he's a 'man of the people' when he's literally just another aristocratic wealthy celebrity, and a hack at that.

9 hours ago, Unknown33 said:

All this talk of getting things done or succeeding and failing... anyone who is overly focused on what Donald Trump is doing is likely still angry that he won.

You are ignoring literally every criticism and concern posited in this thread and instead choosing to build your own narrative about people being angry that he won. 

He has literally had only one policy win: the tax cut, and it has been demonstrably shown to be unbalancing the budget.

9 hours ago, Unknown33 said:

Sometimes we just need to distance ourselves from the TV news cycle and relax. It's a wonderful life.

I'm pretty convinced you're just trolling at this point. You've posted pretty much nothing of substance other than how others need to chill out and see the light.

9 hours ago, Unknown33 said:

Like I said, disagreeing with others is not justification for vivisecting the Constitution and US law to eradicate the egalitarianistic electoral college, which guarantees that smaller voices are also heard

False, the Electoral College was created to ensure that there was no direct democracy. The framers didn't like the idea of a potentially populistic demagogue being elected (and look at the irony of that now).

In any event, the point of Democracy is to follow the majority will of the nation, not the minority. Trump does not represent what the majority of the US voted for. Fine, this is a pointless discussion since Trump won, but to claim that the electoral college was built out of some sort of aim of equal representation of all states is false.

9 hours ago, Unknown33 said:

To whomever is insistent upon downvoting me, despite the fact that I'm being perfectly civil and not taking any political stances... you represent the fundamental reason why your neighbors and friends and colleagues voted for Trump. Sometimes people get so fed up with the juvenile impetuosity of others that they do crazy things to get even. For many, voting for Trump was an act of passive aggression against the modern liberal. And the results have been clear. It worked. The enormous negative reaction to Trump means one thing... he will be re-elected by the same people who put him into office in the first place, for the same reasons.

I don't know who's down voting you, but the whole 'you made me do it' is a very weak argument for voting for politics that turn on racial animus amongst other glaring issues. If your only excuse for voting for Trump is 'you made me do it' then you've only proven your own deeply embedded antipathy and anger as well and willingness to pretty much take in everything Trump represents. 

2 minutes ago, Unknown33 said:

Your entire post resembles sincerity but the GIF demonstrates antipathy. We get it. Losing isn't fun. Better luck next time around.

Did you even read his post? His entire post criticized pretty much every President for the last two decades and called it a symptom of the decline of America. Your posts are coming off as trolling and building fake narratives. This isn't particularly constructive.

7 hours ago, Makusik Fedakusik said:

I understand, that you want live in rule "We can have only 2 views. My own and wrong."

Incorrect. If you are referring to my black and white view of the election, I will note that that had very little to do with Conservative vs Liberal. It had only to do with Trump and Trump himself. Had you even put up Jeb Bush vs Trump, the choice would still be very black and white. I don't agree with Jeb Bush on a variety of things, but the man was not Trump levels of moronic.

7 hours ago, Makusik Fedakusik said:

I think it's not OK, when you want leave your home land and invade another one. It's abusing of good feelings.

Invading? What the hell are you on about? Who's invading what country? If you're referring to illegal immigration to the US, I'm not in favor of allowing illegal immigration, since it's illegal. But that doesn't mean that I'm in favor of inhumane treatment of migrants at the border. I'm also not in favor of mass deportation of anyone who doesn't look like they 'belong' nor am I in favor of discrimination on the basis of religion. The fact that you started off this entire post with invading tells me a hell of a lot about your views on immigration in general. 

The US has pretty damned strict immigration laws. It isn't particularly easy to immigrate to the nation legally. 

7 hours ago, Makusik Fedakusik said:

But invading.... I'm not nazi, but not far-left too. Make your country great, why not.

Stellar way to build credibility dude. This statement tells me that I'm not about to get a lot of debating you.

4 minutes ago, deltaKshatriya said:

You literally just posted something without offering anything to the statement.

In this instance do we make a distinction between literally posting and just regular posting? I jest, of course.

It would seem your main unsolicited criticism of me is that I am not arguing enough to suit your tastes. Guilty as charged, and I will accept the punishment for my behavior.

Do have a good day, all.

On 7/23/2018 at 11:35 PM, deltaKshatriya said:

Now of course, the simple answer is that 'so long as support continues, Trump/Trumpism will continue', but can this be sustained? 

Yes, it can.  Human nature is naturally fond of ruts, finding preferable the continuing of the status quo as long as it's not immediately inconveniencing.  Simply by being an incumbent, he already has a considerable advantage come 2020.
In order for the support to stop, the minds of his supporters must be changed.
To those who presume a possible escape from the eldritch nightmare: what -can- change their minds, and how would that procedure happen?

28 minutes ago, Lendrigan Games said:

Yes, it can.  Human nature is naturally fond of ruts, finding preferable the continuing of the status quo as long as it's not immediately inconveniencing.  Simply by being an incumbent, he already has a considerable advantage come 2020.
In order for the support to stop, the minds of his supporters must be changed.
To those who presume a possible escape from the eldritch nightmare: what -can- change their minds, and how would that procedure happen?

Have you tried reasonable dialogue?

42 minutes ago, deltaKshatriya said:

You literally just posted something without offering anything to the statement. Opinions are opinions, but you've literally just posited a claim "Trump's a good president" without any substance to back it up. Now you're claiming that @ChaosEngine's (and I'm assuming many of those who think Trump is a moron and a racist) position is demonstrably hyperbole. That's a rather sweeping statement to make when your first statement has nothing to back it up nor any criticisms of what's hyperbole. 

I think myself and others on this thread have done pretty much that. It seems that to you those things don't matter, for whatever reason. At the minimum, in posting here you've chosen to pretty much ignore what others and myself have posted about.

No I don't celebrate that. And neither do a large number of people. Because of what Trump's rhetoric and more moronic policies have meant. Because of what they represent. For many of us, the fact that something like Trump can be elected and can be continued to allowed to govern the way he does, is absolutely frightening. There is no 'hyperbole' in what Trump has said and done. Those are facts. You can spin them however you want, but facts do not change.

This isn't a case of people simply ignoring Trump's greatness, it's more of a case of people ignoring and in some cases supporting his glaring and obvious problems. Trump should not represent renewed hope in any sense of the term. The man doesn't give a damn about anyone except for his own skin. That is also demonstrable fact from his long and checkered history of conning people. What's more telling is how he's conned people into thinking he's a 'man of the people' when he's literally just another aristocratic wealthy celebrity, and a hack at that.

You are ignoring literally every criticism and concern posited in this thread and instead choosing to build your own narrative about people being angry that he won. 

He has literally had only one policy win: the tax cut, and it has been demonstrably shown to be unbalancing the budget.

I'm pretty convinced you're just trolling at this point. You've posted pretty much nothing of substance other than how others need to chill out and see the light.

False, the Electoral College was created to ensure that there was no direct democracy. The framers didn't like the idea of a potentially populistic demagogue being elected (and look at the irony of that now).

In any event, the point of Democracy is to follow the majority will of the nation, not the minority. Trump does not represent what the majority of the US voted for. Fine, this is a pointless discussion since Trump won, but to claim that the electoral college was built out of some sort of aim of equal representation of all states is false.

I don't know who's down voting you, but the whole 'you made me do it' is a very weak argument for voting for politics that turn on racial animus amongst other glaring issues. If your only excuse for voting for Trump is 'you made me do it' then you've only proven your own deeply embedded antipathy and anger as well and willingness to pretty much take in everything Trump represents. 

Did you even read his post? His entire post criticized pretty much every President for the last two decades and called it a symptom of the decline of America. Your posts are coming off as trolling and building fake narratives. This isn't particularly constructive.

Incorrect. If you are referring to my black and white view of the election, I will note that that had very little to do with Conservative vs Liberal. It had only to do with Trump and Trump himself. Had you even put up Jeb Bush vs Trump, the choice would still be very black and white. I don't agree with Jeb Bush on a variety of things, but the man was not Trump levels of moronic.

Invading? What the hell are you on about? Who's invading what country? If you're referring to illegal immigration to the US, I'm not in favor of allowing illegal immigration, since it's illegal. But that doesn't mean that I'm in favor of inhumane treatment of migrants at the border. I'm also not in favor of mass deportation of anyone who doesn't look like they 'belong' nor am I in favor of discrimination on the basis of religion. The fact that you started off this entire post with invading tells me a hell of a lot about your views on immigration in general. 

The US has pretty damned strict immigration laws. It isn't particularly easy to immigrate to the nation legally. 

Stellar way to build credibility dude. This statement tells me that I'm not about to get a lot of debating you.

Using arbitrary criterion to label political opponents persona non grata is a great way to ensure that you and they can never achieve any mutual understanding. It's preferable only if your desire is to never get along and always have a reason to debate. If your goal is to find common ground and further the discussion, this is the opposite of the correct approach.

Oh boy, it's the yearly gamedev Trump thread

I'm happy that Trump's performing about as expected, economy is doing great and I made a good decision buying into the market pretty big.

Pretty much nothing thrown at him has stuck, or turned out to be a lie. How many times was he supposed to be impeached now?

as for the nyt article.... Why would anyone submit an article like that when the nsa can get into every computer? It claims they stole documents off of Trump's desk.... In one if the must secure rooms in the world, with cameras everywhere.... I don't buy it, sounds like fake news or a low level staffer making up lies hoping for a book deal.

As someone who called Trump's win way back from when he first started doing weekly rallies (and I was supporting Rand Paul), I think with this economy and low trust in media, Republicans are going to crush Democrats in 2018.

Trump can only last another term, but his strategic decisions have shown you don't actually have to confirm to political conventions, so "trumpism"  is probably going to be the new paradigm for both the left and right.