39 minutes ago, Mynx said:

1 hour ago, Bob Marl said:

But why can't I have a boy only club?

Second, I don't see a problem in wanting a boys space in itself, but your space literally takes up the entire playground. Any space I go to, like movies, games, comics, etc, are all male dominated.

So what are you doing in movies if it's a boy space? ... it's not. There's no such thing as a boy only club. Why can't I have one?

10 minutes ago, Bob Marl said:

So what are you doing in movies if it's a boy space? ... it's not. There's no such thing as a boy only club. Why can't I have one?

hey man this is really bugging me could you possibly clarify what you were intending to say? You just said there's no such thing and then you go on to say why can't I have one. Is this a troll? If you could clarify that would be great  

1 minute ago, Bradley Latreille said:

hey man this is really bugging me could you possibly clarify what you were intending to say? You just said there's no such thing and then you go on to say why can't I have one. Is this a troll? If you could clarify that would be great  

I mean that there is none existing right now, not that it's impossible to have.

2 minutes ago, Bob Marl said:

I mean that there is none existing right now, not that it's impossible to have.

Oh okay, well there is though, boy scouts and girl scouts (just saying haha) But yes all I wanted was the clarification so thank you for that  

40 minutes ago, Bob Marl said:

So what are you doing in movies if it's a boy space? ... it's not. There's no such thing as a boy only club. Why can't I have one?

I think you're taking that way too literally.

these threads are like an episode of Dragon Ball Z

On 5/31/2018 at 12:23 PM, Gian-Reto said:

Well, I made my own stance oin this topic clear in the past...

But I think its so easy for devs to avoid any kind of fallout... Simply Don't. advertise. your. game. as. historical. when. it. isn't.

Will there still be outrage warriors? Of course. But they have a much thinner leg to stand on when the dev comes out and admits flat out that they just produced a random FPS Shooter with a light WW2 skin (or a fantasy RPG with a medieval skin) instead of calling it realistic and integrating BS "history tours" into their fantasy egyptian looking world.

 

On the other hand I had to chuckle hard about the other sides outrage warriors going ballistic over Kingdom Come. Hey, you know, right back at ya... don't like it? Don't buy it! The devs clearly wanted to stick to a realistic depiction of historical bohemia. And they didn't wanted to concentrate on that one black moor that might have found its way into bohemia at the time.... or the few jeanne d'arc stories that survived the times. From what I have heard and seen, it pretty much matches the history I got taught in school about medieveal europe... so call it all the -isms and -phobias you like, I my eyes the dev of that game stuck to history as taught here in europe. Maybe the history taught in school is wrong, yeah. Still historical accurate from what we know about medival bohemia today.

Do I think it was the right thing to do? Well, it seems to have financially turned out to be a good idea. All the outrage warriors running amok against it probably should create their own historical RPGs set in bohemia if they don't like it... I am sure they would trigger a lot of the historical accuray outrage warriors as a bonus point.

Now, trying to see it from the lens of someone with a different opinion on history... yeah, maybe they could have gone easy on the historical accuray stuff. But then, without that their game probably was just another RPG, decent maybe, but not that earth-shattering as I heard, and who could resist the free marketing of a million outrage warriors selling the game to the ani-SJW crowd... so again, probably shouldn't have ridden the historical accuray train like CoD WW2 shouldn't have. In the end, even history has become subjective nowadays.

 

So really, devs not dealing with a) a long running franchise and b) not trying to sell their game as historically accurate, should do whatever the hell they want. they will get attacked by outrage warriors anyway about something silly. Putting "historically accurate" on your product will just paint an even bigger mark on your products forehead.... so unless you want free marketing to cater to a specific side, you probably should just keep your marketing shills in check.

I completely agree with you. Personally I believe that many gamers have the opinion that the gaming industry is being destroyed by toxic sjw and pc culture, even had some people I personally know tell me that they're all for having minorities in games even as main characters but that if they feel it's forced to meet a quota or trying to push an ideology on them that they wouldn't even play the game if it was offered to them for free.

5 hours ago, Awoken said:

these threads are like an episode of Dragon Ball Z

lol 

21 hours ago, Bob Marl said:

The difference is that those changes were not to cater to SJWs.

How many times does this need to be repeated. Studios are not including diversity to cater to SJW's. They are doing it to appeal to more demographics to increase sales.

Is making food spicier to appeal to Indians catering to SJW's?

This entire debate stems from the misguided belief that the entertainment industry is trying to persecute white men by portraying non white men in roles were white men were dominant before. Its BS. It is the result of market research and it has been shown to work.

On 6/2/2018 at 5:58 PM, deltaKshatriya said:

I'm not quite sure that this is necessarily true. I've seen a lot of equivocating of 'both sides' in US politics, and I don't think I quite agree with how true it is, for various reasons.

Well... lets leave out the US politics then. I only have an outside view on that, so I can hardly comment.

That I have seen in the gaming space was a bunch of provocations and counterprovocations, amongst real grievances and real issues people had with certain things. You can say "this side is more in the right", or whatever. Denying the fact that there have been bad apples amongst the "partisans" on both sides would be closing your eyes to the truth.

That is why I am repeating myself that gaming has become a very reactive environment. Most of the hate and vitriol that is spewed by a - still - vocal minority is mostly a reaction on past provocation. If you cannot understand that, then you probably will always be puzzled how we got to such a toxic environment.

When it all started I don't know. I have my theories, but I rather not get into that.

On 6/2/2018 at 5:58 PM, deltaKshatriya said:

Where have people been demanding? Where have people said that "there's too many whites here, we need to change this". There have been frequent complaints about white-washing for the reasons that @Mynx stated, but I don't see 'rabid reactionaries' that attack any form of media for being too white. If there are examples, please do show them to me. If they exist, then yeah, I'd like to see and discuss as well.

Well... in case of Kingdom come, I wouldn't just call the reactions "complaints". Granted, again, most of that wasn't directed at the game and mostly at certain persons as revenge for past grievances. Still, something I have seen as a gross overreaction to what is, at best, a slight historical innaccuray.

From where I stand, I have little difference in tone and motivation between that and those recent attack on BF5, or the attacks on CoD some time ago. Its all part of that toxic activist culture some people have made their way of life...

On 6/2/2018 at 5:58 PM, deltaKshatriya said:

Battlefield 1, in my opinion handled this well though.

Well, in this case my gripe is all about the rarest wepaons from the last year of the war being used instead of the bog standart bolt action rifle, turning a slow methodical way of fighting into modern warfare, essentially.

Or the planes shooting rockets.

Or Space Marines in WW1.

Or the fact the campaign started of so strong and fresh and then turned into yet another BF campaign that had little to do with WW1 on a gameplay level.

Again, I am a historical fetishist. If somebody tells me "historical", I expect something that tries to emulate a bygone era. BF1 is actually the worst offender here for me because of that.

On 6/2/2018 at 5:58 PM, deltaKshatriya said:

I'm still very unsure about why multiplayer skins are such a big deal though.

To be honest, I am not so sure anymore myself. Not being that immersed into the marketing campaign of BF5 this time, and hearing that BF5 might be a mutliplayer only game, so probably historical references only go skin deep, I have no issues with the whole Avatar thing this time. As long as nobody tries to sell it as "history", I have no issue with historical inaccurays.

But to re-iterate what I stated above: this is no longer about isolated incidents. Its a continuation of a nerd war between virtual hooligans. It was when outrage warriors attacked Kingdom come because of the person that spearheaded its development IMO... it might be here. Maybe some people wanted payback for the Kingdom come controversy?

And as far as I looked into it, as far as I understand the sides involved, and as far as I know "nerd psychology", this "war" will not end quickly. This will go on for quite a while still. And things will stay this ugly, or become even uglier. Google "Bully hunters" if you haven't heard about this garbage fire. Fighting bullies with counter-bullies, a great idea *sarcasm*. Also a child of this mentality of fighting radicals with more radicals.

On 6/2/2018 at 5:58 PM, deltaKshatriya said:

I'm going to reiterate: I don't think the whole debate is as "everyone's toxic" as you seem to think. You're observing from continental Europe, where race relations, Left vs Right, and other issues are very different, and everything about the US is viewed from afar, so understandably, it's easy to miss a lot of details, just as I'd miss a ton of details regarding European politics. 

Again, I'd like to see examples of the 'opposite'. When has there been a controversy for something being too 'white'? I haven't heard it myself

Well, I give you that for sure: I have an outsiders view. Thus what I see might be tainted by the media and an european mindset. Certainly, race relations are way different over here, so I probably will stop talking about issues I know not so much of.

Look into the Kingdom Come issue. Blown out of proportion by the anti-SJW side? Yes sure. But, to be honest, so is this BF5 thing. I haven't seen much more than disparaging youtube videos and some vitriol spewed online yet. Again, from a thirdperson view not the end of the world, just another stupid incident that is turning gaming into an ever more toxic environment.

With all that said, maybe you can understand now why I say probably the only solution for game devs is to stop talking about it, and simply ignore this kind of feedback for now. Reduce the budget expecting some lost sales and negative PR, and simply create the games they think will sell.

If HZD hasn't been enough of an example, the japanese dev scene is a good example too. They hardly listen to fans outside of japan, for their language barrier, their target market being primarly japan, and, yes, maybe also a latent racism against foreigneirs (altough again, I have no proof either way, and as its not targeted against a minority group in this case, am impartial towards it even if it would be the case).

That has hardly ever affected their sales worldwide. Lets not forget, while japanese games usually don't do so well in the US... they do VERY well in europe, and other parts of asia. Some of the weirdest games have stayed in japan, and in some cases this was justified. But apart from that, the only ever outrage I have seen was when a western publisher got the censorship hammer out, instead of telling the japanese producer "we cannot sell that **** over here, get a different publisher to do that for you".

This MIGHT rob this garbage fire of its oxygen, and given there are game developers with different political viewpoints, and there is a market, will lead to a "diversity" in games that hopefully cater to everyone.