It's important to be careful not to appear as pandering to small groups of sjw's or you risk upsetting a larger amount of your fan base, it's also good to keep in mind that inclusion doesn't always fit the game. If you want to see what those gamers are afraid of just look at the current American comic book industry.

8 hours ago, mikeman said:

Now, those guys believe that racism/sexism, if they ever existed at all, have been solved entirely - not completely sure when, maybe when women got the vote, maybe some years after MLK was assasinated, maybe when Obama was elected, etc. 

Now, their logic goes, if sexism and racism have been solved and we already have equality, then obviously the agenda of those feminist/anti-racist movements is not equality/liberation, but supremacy.

Makes sense. I do not really believe racism is the main motivation behind all this - it's much more likely that racism itself is just another result of... primal survival drope? Gather more food than our neighbour on a fine scale, gather more food than people who look obviously different at a larger scale. Don't let others take my food, don't let them play my games.

It's pretty unlikely we will ever be able to share, to increase life standard of 3rd world, to stop over population. We're born shortsighted and selfish. It's our nature. We're too much, standards go down for everyone. We'll fight each other for a space in games, money or food, does not matter. We'll blow the planet up.

This has little to do with games. But seeing that sharing does not even work in a virtual world? That's f****** depressing. I did not expect that. So let's keep making games where killing is fun so people are well prepared.

On 6/2/2018 at 7:44 PM, Mynx said:

The problem I have, as a woman, is that most games of my favorite genre are only targeted at men. And this drives me nuts because to developers, I don't exist. My sales don't count, my opinion doesn't matter.

Imagine if your favorite genre of games was only filled with pink girly themes, fashion and makeup, and other stereo typically (and even possibly harmful) "femininity" that you have no experience in? How far do you think you can relate to characters in that setting? You can't tell me you wouldn't want a few more games featuring more typically "male" themes.

Well, that is actually interesting.

Let me ask you this: if its targeted at men, why is it your favorite genre? I guess you are either talking about shooters, or strategy games (as RPGs seem to serve female gamers well enough according to statistics... or am I mistaken here).

But isn't what you want rather some games that target women, instead of games that try hard to target everyone, and more often than not, fail at that? Because I can understand that a game like Doom, which is filled with testosterone and manliness until it becomes a caricature again (which I guess is also the aim) would probably not suit the taste of most women, even if they are into shooters.

Do you now want Doom changed to become not-so-Doom-and-gloomy-anymore? With a female protagonist, less ugly enemies, or whatever panders to a female demographic?

Or do you want another shooter, just as well designed as Doom, but with a female protagonist and less testosterone filled levels and enemies?

I think this is the big issue here... minority groups and women ask for more representation... and studios answer by changing existing franchises. ESPECIALLY when these studios struggle anyway with making these games fresh and interesting, and push a new version to the market way to often, that only adds to an already troubled relationship many longterm fans might have with the franchise.

Instead of going easy on the yearly schedule for once, milking the franchise less into the ground, and using the time and resources in the meantime to start a new franchise that targets a different demographic. Franchise fatigue is a real thing, if you ask me. Can happen with the best and most consistent of franchises. Watch too many Marvel movies back to back, and you might want to skip one.

And then this franchise fetishism is overrated. Actually, in case of some franchises I simply had enough. Instead, I would love something new.

Now, as to me playing something targeted at girls... if something gets skinned to appeal to girls, but is in its core still a genre that interest me... I probably wouldn't mind. Variety is the spice of life and all that... and there are only so many drab brown military shooters, or Borderlands clones one can play until one wants to see something different.

If its a classical girls game (which is just as stupid stereotypical as the boys games), I probably wouldn't play it. But more because the gameplay probably wouldn't appeal too much to me... and I can understand if its the same for many women.

I can relate to practically anything as long as it has emotions that are close to human ones... or if its emotionlessness is somewhat "relatable". Really. I do understand that some people might be struggling with that though. And again, I love my female player characters, and some of the coolest characters I have seen in games and movies have been black, so I don't mind them getting representation.

... As long as it doesn't mean some game dev hacks thinking they can slack on all other aspects of the game because they can sell "diversity" as a feature, white males don't get forcibly sidelined to serve that diversity (what I mean with forcibly: watch a japanese Moe anime where no man is allowed... it looks something between weird and creepy in most cases IMO... because it kind of breaks immersion when the setting is modern day japan... it would be better topp find an environment where the absence of men makes sense. It would be better to find a setting where the absence of whites and males makes sense, in such a game), the player doesn't get lectured about reallife issues, and game devs don't use it as a way to provoke part of their fanbase and the conservative outrage warriors to then play the victim online, I am all for it.

Just make it good, and immersive, and don't talk about it longer than about the actual game.

Ok, not the best choice of words, I'll admit. What I meant there was the same as above, though. I've said it before but I have no problem relating to male characters, I care about their motivations, I care that they "get the girl", etc.

But men are different than me. They interact with each other differently, they have different experiences, problems, viewpoints and priorities. People of different races, genders and nationalities all have different perspectives and react to situations in different ways, they see the world differently. You yourself confirm that repeatedly by stating you're from Europe and how race issues are very different for you.

Right... and because of that we should strive for as much diversity as possible. Not to replace one with the other because the current political climate say so, to then swing around to white males again when wind changes.

I blame the game industry here mostly, because at least in case of AAA studios they can be quite a bunch copycats. Someone has success with something... lets drop what we are doing and start pushing out clones of whatever that other company had success with.

Diversity in this case starts to look more and more like such a fad. Everyone in politics and online is crying about it... we will get flak if we make a white male a protagonist -> see all the white male protagonists replaced with women and PoC.

With the result that the characters might end up pretty... androgynous. Because the role wasn't written for a woman. With the sometimes justified argument levied at them that they don't have a the backstory of a black person... because that character was only quickly skinned to be black.

And that's where it comes full circle and lands in sexism/racism town. In isolation having white characters is absolutely fine, having entire casts of white people would be fine. But in the larger social context, especially in NA, this kind of thing reinforces a long-standing idea that white men are more important. If you look at American history 50+ years ago you can easily see that idea being pushed hard everywhere, from advertisements to laws, even propaganda.

And here we are again with a NA specific issue. Ther rest of the world might have different issues. Talk to the russians for example. I don't think every russian agrees with the homophobic policies of the Kreml... actually MOST might not agree with it. Still, game devs will remove any kind of homosexual romances and slightest hints at it from games that should be published in russia to pander to those policies.

Should the rest of the world also follow suit according to you? Or should the game dev simply not sell the game in Russia?

So why should a game from the Czech republic for example be change to cater to NA tastes? Shouldn't you rather ask for the game not to be sold in NA if it really is unsuitable for that audience?

Now, few game developers might risk that, because NA is a big market. Some chose to ignore the US though, and some simply have bad enough sales in the US to care about the rest of the world more.

In the end though, it's just nice to have characters that are more like me so that others can relate to me for once.

So you want to lecture others through their entertainment... yeah, I cannot see why THAT would spark an outrage *sarcasm*

Seriously though... as much as you want men to better relate to womens issues... create a documentary about it. Create a specific game about it that tells me on the box it tries to educate me. And I mean educate here, not "educate"... give me facts and intersting trivia, not lecture me.

I choose when I want inform myself about others. If a game developer trys to force it on me, I will drop the game like a hot potato, and the game developers other games with it.

If its a good game, where the "infotainment" aspect is not overshadowing the game, and its actually declared on the box, I might not only play it but enjoy it. I like to relate to different kinds of people... and aliens.

Diversity -> good. Forced diversity -> bad.

1 hour ago, Gian-Reto said:

Diversity -> good. Forced diversity -> bad.

But how do you differentiate between the two, in a way that is not subjective, and fits for all?

For instance, playing BF1 i see black soldiers, ok. But i'm from europe too, and i don't know how much US soldiers were black. I do not recognize anything more wrong here than in the entire rest of the game/genre. Now, with woman appearing in the next game - i recognize this  really makes no sense and is obviously historically not representative (some badass female soldier exceptions aside), but how is this 'lecturing' me, in a game that is obviously completely nonsense anywhere else too?

I'd still need more examples. I make progress in understanding the problems origins, but i still don't see the problem itself. (Reminds me on my youth, when my friends wanted boys evenings... how boring i've said.) 

I also don't know what happened to US comics history. Maybe someone can tell me. What did they do? Black Super Heroes? OMG! This destroys my world! 

1 hour ago, Gian-Reto said:

Seriously though... as much as you want men to better relate to womens issues... create a documentary about it. Create a specific game about it that tells me on the box it tries to educate me. And I mean educate here, not "educate"... give me facts and intersting trivia, not lecture me.

But it always has been the role of philosophers, authors, filmmakers to inspire people and influence their mind. Maybe now it's our turn, even if we are not ready to do it right.

Maybe woman in Battlefield is one mistake, but does that mean we should just give up on any changes / options, and focus on not upsetting people instead? Seems too easy, irresponsible and static to me.

We should not censor real world problems out of our games. We should not force either, but we should give options, and we should create systems that lead to proper conclusions. E.g. a multiplayer game, where the player profits from joining a faction. Mixed, or Male / female - black / white... it's the players responsibility whatever groups they form. They fight each other, but they also profit from joining forces against a larger monster enemy. At any time one has the option to shoot other factions players in their back while fighting the monster, but this selfish and shortsighted behavior leads to a loss against the monster more often than not. The faction may kick the bad guy player as a result. 

Not a new or great idea, but surely a way to 'lecture' and put a little sense in our work, while a still interesting gameplay mechanic. Win-win. Earth blow up delayed one day  

14 hours ago, mikeman said:

Anyway, as I was saying, my post is mostly about the reaction to this thing and the group that's causing it. It's pretty clear that there is a segment of population(mostly in the USA, but also in Europe, mostly white men, but not entirely) that feel that they're under attack. If we don't understand that, we can't understand their behaviour and reactions to seemingly silly things like videogames - so I repeat; they feel they are under attack.

This and everything else you said is so on the nose! My thought is always focus on why they feel attacked. The answer seems to typically be ignorance. These people have built a world-view on a falsehood: the idea that equality has been achieved. This is pure ignorance at the foundation of every other string of logic they have.

Obviously, it hasn't. #MeToo wouldn't be a thing if it was, BLM wouldn't be a thing if it was. A friend of mine wouldn't have been starved a promotion because she refused to give her boss sexual favors.

These guys live in a small bubble where they've never seen or experienced sexism or racism in this way so they just assume it's a relic of the past, ignoring ofc the anti-femininity/toxic masculinity that they don't think is a problem because they've never been bullied for it - see a pattern? I do...

It's like our own progress is biting us in the bum.

4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:

Let me ask you this: if its targeted at men, why is it your favorite genre?

Ye I was talking about Shooters, but I really like Rythm games too. I'm particularly focusing on shooters because rythm games are fairly general. Why do I like them? Because I really like the point&shoot element, the skill challenge of reacting as quickly as possible. I find it super fun to dodge & shoot and I like to challenge myself to get better.

"Targeted at men" in this sense is less about the game mechanics or grit or gore (stereotypes, btw) and more about the assumptions the developers make. It's about them assuming their demographic is entirely comprised of men, and making decisions around that assumption. It's about the perspective carried by the story - it's always things connected to the experiences of men, because developers are overwhelmingly men and they assume (self fulfilling prophecy btw) that the audience is too, so you get a lot of things like, for example, the popular "I need to protect my family" narrative that is present in soooo many movies. This kind of thing happens even in games or movies that feature women as protagonists. You've probably heard of it referred to as "the male gaze" but I don't like bringing that up because people lose their minds over it.

So when I say I want media aimed at me, I'm not saying I want stereotypical feminine content. I mean I want stories that carry the perspectives of women, that connect to the experience of women. It's all pretty subtle stuff, frankly, but it's nice when it's there.

There's nothing wrong with relating to the experience of men, but that's all I really get to relate to when I watch TV, go to the movies or play games. There is content like that, but it's a bit of a rarity.

Ofc that all applies to other people, not just women. POC etc all have different life experiences and having stories that carry their perspective is great. Pretty sure Black Panther did that well.

4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:

But isn't what you want rather some games that target women, instead of games that try hard to target everyone, and more often than not, fail at that? Because I can understand that a game like Doom, which is filled with testosterone and manliness until it becomes a caricature again (which I guess is also the aim) would probably not suit the taste of most women, even if they are into shooters.

I'd love to have games with different themes, but it seems that the industry doesn't believe enough women like me like these games, so they don't invest in the idea. The only option as of right now is to expand the existing market until it becomes viable. Then I think we'll see more of that.

That said, I loved the new Doom, and so did my friends. The fact that it caricatures the "tough" narrative was one of my favorite parts about it. I loved being a badass demon killer who breaks everything even when told to be cautious, it was hella fun. I don't think this is particularly gendered considering how thin it was portrayed.

I'm more focused on developed characters that interact with each other, acting tough with each other or whatever else..

Again though having a female Doom-Slayer in multiplayer would always be welcome from me, and I'd love to see it just because women can be badass too, but I'm not going to demand it. Developers get to chose if they want to provide that or not, not me. As for story mode, it's fine as it is IMO. Sure, playing a girl in story mode would've been super fun too, but I'm happy with it as it is.

4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:

I think this is the big issue here... minority groups and women ask for more representation... and studios answer by changing existing franchises. ESPECIALLY when these studios struggle anyway with making these games fresh and interesting, and push a new version to the market way to often, that only adds to an already troubled relationship many longterm fans might have with the franchise.

Instead of going easy on the yearly schedule for once, milking the franchise less into the ground, and using the time and resources in the meantime to start a new franchise that targets a different demographic. Franchise fatigue is a real thing, if you ask me. Can happen with the best and most consistent of franchises. Watch too many Marvel movies back to back, and you might want to skip one.

And then this franchise fetishism is overrated. Actually, in case of some franchises I simply had enough. Instead, I would love something new.

I agree with you, new IPs would be fantastic instead of rehashing the same thing over and over. People might be getting too attached to their IPs if throwing a girl into the mix is enough to make them this upset. New IPs don't typically have this problem since they don't have pre-existing attachments and expectations.

4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:

Now, as to me playing something targeted at girls... if something gets skinned to appeal to girls, but is in its core still a genre that interest me... I probably wouldn't mind. Variety is the spice of life and all that... and there are only so many drab brown military shooters, or Borderlands clones one can play until one wants to see something different.

If its a classical girls game (which is just as stupid stereotypical as the boys games), I probably wouldn't play it. But more because the gameplay probably wouldn't appeal too much to me... and I can understand if its the same for many women.

+1 I agree, I'm also concerned with the idea of "skinning something to appeal to girls" because I guarantee it would end up just being insulting. Women can be powerful, men can be vulnerable. I want to see those depictions, too.

We don't see enough variation in media. From a political perspective, having those variations can help normalize different experiences, and that's really why you see so much pushing for diversity. From a personal perspective, having more diverse stories makes for more interesting media and less stale content, and I'm sooo for that.

4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:

... As long as it doesn't mean some game dev hacks thinking they can slack on all other aspects of the game because they can sell "diversity" as a feature, white males don't get forcibly sidelined to serve that diversity (what I mean with forcibly: watch a japanese Moe anime where no man is allowed... it looks something between weird and creepy in most cases IMO... because it kind of breaks immersion when the setting is modern day japan... it would be better topp find an environment where the absence of men makes sense. It would be better to find a setting where the absence of whites and males makes sense, in such a game), the player doesn't get lectured about reallife issues, and game devs don't use it as a way to provoke part of their fanbase and the conservative outrage warriors to then play the victim online, I am all for it.

Just make it good, and immersive, and don't talk about it longer than about the actual game.

I could go on an on about Japanese content and the problems present there, they're just extensions of the same social issue, honestly. That said there is a lot of content where women are either not present at all or are nothing more than props for the plot, pretty much everywhere. It's pretty tiresome.

My only argument in this conversation regarding that is: I don't believe sidelining a character that fits the description of 95% of the other characters for someone else is a big deal, and I question why that matters so much to you.

4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:

Just make it good, and immersive, and don't talk about it longer than about the actual game.

Yes, this. Exactly this. Will get back to that topic later.

4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:

Right... and because of that we should strive for as much diversity as possible. Not to replace one with the other because the current political climate say so, to then swing around to white males again when wind changes.

I blame the game industry here mostly, because at least in case of AAA studios they can be quite a bunch copycats. Someone has success with something... lets drop what we are doing and start pushing out clones of whatever that other company had success with.

You're already starting to touch on something I wanted to bring up, and that is the fact that developers are lazily handling diversity or inclusion. And frankly, I'm annoyed with it too because it usually leads to back-tracking on a decision or poorly representing someone, but usually I'll accept that over nothing.

Instead of complaining that they're "forcing diversity down our throats" why can't we all complain about them being bad at implementing diversity?

4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:

Diversity in this case starts to look more and more like such a fad. Everyone in politics and online is crying about it... we will get flak if we make a white male a protagonist -> see all the white male protagonists replaced with women and PoC.

With the result that the characters might end up pretty... androgynous. Because the role wasn't written for a woman. With the sometimes justified argument levied at them that they don't have a the backstory of a black person... because that character was only quickly skinned to be black.

And that's because the developers in question don't actually care about the people they're putting in, which results in bad decisions, poor representation and lazy execution, which are all things I'm not happy about either. But we've only seen a trailer for BF so far and there's no way to know if it's actually bad or not. They're jumping way ahead and over-reacting.

As for reskins, again it's lazy execution, this kind of thing works best when you've planned for it. A good, inclusive director/writer/what-have-you would have thought about a diverse cast from the start, and that's what we want. People who are outraged by a lack of representation won't be happy with a crappy reskin, either, and you're bound to get controversy for poorly representing someone. That's how you set yourself up for a lose-lose.

4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:

And here we are again with a NA specific issue. Ther rest of the world might have different issues. Talk to the russians for example. I don't think every russian agrees with the homophobic policies of the Kreml... actually MOST might not agree with it. Still, game devs will remove any kind of homosexual romances and slightest hints at it from games that should be published in russia to pander to those policies.

Should the rest of the world also follow suit according to you? Or should the game dev simply not sell the game in Russia?

 

So why should a game from the Czech republic for example be change to cater to NA tastes? Shouldn't you rather ask for the game not to be sold in NA if it really is unsuitable for that audience?

Now, few game developers might risk that, because NA is a big market. Some chose to ignore the US though, and some simply have bad enough sales in the US to care about the rest of the world more.

I've been complaining about developers catering to US issues for years (I'm not American) but they still do it, regardless of where they're from, and it's annoying.

That said, human rights issues are not specific to the US and I don't understand your separation between EU and NA "issues". Gay rights are a problem everywhere, and people in those regions still exist and want representation. Hell I'd argue it's almost more important there than in NA.

I get the feeling that you think this "isn't an issue outside of the US and therefore doesn't need to be addressed in our games" which is just your ignorance showing. People outside of the states don't have loud voices, but they're still there. You can look at Japan as an example, they're almost silent/invisible but they certainly exist and representation issues are big problem there. See Okama as example.

Racism has a different face in many places but it's still a world-wide issue, so the same applies there.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it might not be an issue for you, maybe it's irrelevant, but it's important to someone, and I don't see why your apathy is more important than their representation.

4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:

 

On 6/2/2018 at 7:44 PM, Mynx said:

In the end though, it's just nice to have characters that are more like me so that others can relate to me for once.

So you want to lecture others through their entertainment... yeah, I cannot see why THAT would spark an outrage *sarcasm*

God no, I don't want to lecture anyone on anything, that would make for horrible entertainment and ye, would absolutely lead to outrage.

I want well written characters. I want entertaining mechanics. In all honesty I'd love more female characters, but men that behave differently than the status quo is also entirely welcome. I just want something different.

The only reason I focus on female characters at all in this discussion is because I'm sick of being blamed for "ruining games" just because I exist in the space.

4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:

Seriously though... as much as you want men to better relate to womens issues... create a documentary about it. Create a specific game about it that tells me on the box it tries to educate me. And I mean educate here, not "educate"... give me facts and intersting trivia, not lecture me.

I choose when I want inform myself about others. If a game developer trys to force it on me, I will drop the game like a hot potato, and the game developers other games with it.

 

If its a good game, where the "infotainment" aspect is not overshadowing the game, and its actually declared on the box, I might not only play it but enjoy it. I like to relate to different kinds of people... and aliens.

You're stretching what I said too far. I don't want to lecture or educate on womens issues, I want to frame the story or events from her perspective. In Tomb Raider there's a sexual assault scene and it completely misses the mark on framing it.

My biggest gripe, honestly, is all in how characters interact. Guys in games always seem to interact the same way, and it gets a little tiring. I don't mind it, but it's stale. Anytime a girl comes in it's flirty or sexy, which is equally tiresome. I'd love a depiction of characters that are just close friends looking out for each other during their war-story, no sexy or whatever. It happens and when it does I love it, but it's a bit of a rarity (getting better these days).

4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:

Diversity -> good. Forced diversity -> bad.

More important: Considerate diversity -> good. Lazy diversity -> bad.

I mean, at the end of the day, focusing on writing good stories and characters is already a huge step towards making everything feel natural and not "forced". If you think it's forced, it's probably just badly done. Anytime you cause controversy with "progressives" it's because it was done poorly. If you research a demographic you don't personally know in order to write a well formed character, then you're on the right track.

All of that said, none of this has any bearing on multiplayer! I still don't understand why anyone would complain about character selection in a multiplayer setting. It's literally complaining about having choice and options. How is that bad?

I don't think we're in disagreement per-say, I think we're just having a hard time communicating (not surprising for me) because we're coming at it from different angles.

I apologize if you feel any hostility in anything I've posted here, there isn't anything intentional but I have this conversation so often with people who are irrationally upset and take it out on me because a small change (i.e. a girl was introduced) was made to "their" game... I'm just burnt from it.

8 hours ago, Mynx said:

These people have built a world-view on a falsehood: the idea that equality has been achieved. This is pure ignorance at the foundation of every other string of logic they have.

I fear you, and many others on both side fall prey to modern times and its greatest myth: that there is still one universal truth... and everyone who doesn't believe it is the lunatic.

For a lot of people worldwide, equality has been achieved. Is that right? Wrong? Who will be able to prove either side of the argument right or wrong in a world where everything can verified on the internet, thus a lot of lying politicians and media got caught and both politics and media have a trouble with people questioning everything from their direction now... yet at the other hand, its easy like never before to falsify information on the internet.

You probably are just as much living in your own information bubble like what you probably see as "mysoginists" raving against feminism.

Some people have proven (again, if you believe their proof) that the algorithms used on Youtube, Facebook and twitter to get people more engaged are just giving them the information that fortify their already existing worldview, unless they go out of their way to challenge it. And a normal person usually does not do that, so ... liberal bubble <-> conservative bubble.

When the two meet after years of not having dealt with each other, you can bet bad things happen as they have such a different view of the world and what is actually going on that they will be totally at odds with each other.

Hence calling something "pure ignorance" just shows that you yourself probably are too involved in the topic... and yeah, I am aware that I am guilty of that just like everyone else. No one is a saint here, we all have our biases.

8 hours ago, Mynx said:

 A friend of mine wouldn't have been starved a promotion because she refused to give her boss sexual favors.

I hope she was brushing up her CV the next day? That pretty much sounds like no place ANYONE would want to work, male or female. She probably only saw half of the abuse happening there, with the male victims not speaking up because of stupid "men don't complain but suck it up" coping strategies when they are to afraid to punch another dude in the face (which is what that Boss would have deserved).

Not saying that isn't really gross and bad but really: that is just toxic work environments. They exist, they need to stamped out. Going against abuse based on gender is the wrong way to do it IMO.

8 hours ago, Mynx said:

This and everything else you said is so on the nose! My thought is always focus on why they feel attacked.

Maybe there is not one answer, but many. And I think the problem is that by now, many of those guys on "the other side" from yours have many good reasons to feel humilated or angry.

This stupid slapfight has been going on for years now in the gaming space and there have been many shots fired from both sides. If you think your side has done no harm -> see the "bubble theory" I was talking about above. Each sides chosen "Media" has a habbit of downplaying their own attack dogs shenigans while trying to paint the opposition in the worst ever light.

The media, including parts of the "Mainstream media" (whatever that is), the gaming press, and a lot of youtube basically lives off this stupid slapfight. Nothing makes good money like controversy. So they feed into the loop with endless articles and youtube videos ever so slightly bending the truth, to provoke the other side into another stupid attack.

All for the clicks, and the ad money. IMO some activist group also live of this money making scheme, but then I have no proof, and they might be just rabid attack dogs by nature.

If you REALLY want to know WHY... maybe talk to some of the less extreme proponents of the other side. Lay aside your ideological beliefs and simply listen. You might be surprised to find people who return the favour and listen to you (if you can stick to "common grounds parlance" instead of liberal buzzwords probably though).

8 hours ago, Mynx said:

Ye I was talking about Shooters, but I really like Rythm games too. I'm particularly focusing on shooters because rythm games are fairly general. Why do I like them? Because I really like the point&shoot element, the skill challenge of reacting as quickly as possible. I find it super fun to dodge & shoot and I like to challenge myself to get better.

So I guess what you are looking for are just shooter games that do not involve killing people? Or soldiers fighting in a war? Isn't Splatoon something that goes into that direction, altough that is aimed at kids?

Or am I off in a wrong direction here?

8 hours ago, Mynx said:

"Targeted at men" in this sense is less about the game mechanics or grit or gore (stereotypes, btw) and more about the assumptions the developers make. It's about them assuming their demographic is entirely comprised of men, and making decisions around that assumption. It's about the perspective carried by the story - it's always things connected to the experiences of men, because developers are overwhelmingly men and they assume (self fulfilling prophecy btw) that the audience is too, so you get a lot of things like, for example, the popular "I need to protect my family" narrative that is present in soooo many movies. This kind of thing happens even in games or movies that feature women as protagonists. You've probably heard of it referred to as "the male gaze" but I don't like bringing that up because people lose their minds over it.

Well, see, at this point you need to explain how the expierience of men and women fighting in a war differ. Both probably fear for their life, want to kill people either to save themselves, their families, or because of some deluded national pride or religious zeal. Hows that going to differ between a male and female protagonist?

Is it that you want the developer to insert ADDITIONAL story elements to actually MAKE a difference... or do you think there would be a natural difference in the expierience?

How is that going to make much difference when solving a murder mystery case?

Unless we are talking about mundane everyday perspectives where gender ROLES play a... pardon the pun... role, a male and female protagonist, from where I stand, will act the exact same way given the same personality and abilities. Its because in exceptional situations like wartime gender roles will usually be pushed to the back, IF both genders are used in the same capacity (which they historically have not, but today are in some countries).

I get that the "I need to protect my family" trope is aimed at men. What is your alternative that would suit women more, would allow for the same amount of mayhem to happen, and would be acceptable for both liberals and conservatives, men and women to some (if in the last category lesser) extent?

Because that is what this trope is. An inoffensive way to justify unjustifiable acts of brutality by the protagonist while making him look like a good guy.

The dreaded "Male gaze"... yeah, I will probably just sign out on that because I have not much good to say. Before I do that, let me tell you this... ask for more godd stuff for the "female gaze" instead of being annoyed that guys get good toys too. Industry probaby should make more toys for women, agreed. Trying to sour the "boys toys" so to speak with toxic feminist language will only provoke one reaction. And you can guess which one that is.

EDIT: And I don't mean "toys" as in "Sexobjects", even though the theory seems to be mainly concerned with that. I mean it in the sense of "stuff X finds good/attractive"

As a closing statement to a way to long answer: I think the answer is to get more NEW game dev companies creating NEW games that cater to NEW markets.

Asking the current top dogs that are good at what they do, but will start from scratch if asked to cater to a wholy different market probably will only end in tears. As much as it pains me to say that (ugh, the yearly CoD / FIFA -ware from EA)

8 hours ago, Mynx said:

That said, human rights issues are not specific to the US and I don't understand your separation between EU and NA "issues". Gay rights are a problem everywhere, and people in those regions still exist and want representation. Hell I'd argue it's almost more important there than in NA.

I get the feeling that you think this "isn't an issue outside of the US and therefore doesn't need to be addressed in our games" which is just your ignorance showing. People outside of the states don't have loud voices, but they're still there. You can look at Japan as an example, they're almost silent/invisible but they certainly exist and representation issues are big problem there. See Okama as example.

Well. Let me tell you something: you are probably as ignorant about the world outside of your own country as I am about the world inside of your country (or the world outside of mine). That said, lets continue...

Gay rights are a problem everywhere, right. But sadly you cannot force the world to become a better place. Most of this mess is currently going on BECAUSE some people want to force the world to become a better place. Mostly out of good intentions (or so I hope), but what do they say about good intentions: the road to hell is paved with it.

Gay rights are an issue everywhere. But sadly we are talking about games here, and games are a business. A business that tries to put saving the world above making money will be out of business soon. Why would many businesses want to cater to homosexual people in the first place?

So IF you want to be successfull in other parts of the world, you have to respect the norms that these parts have... and in case if China (a big market), or Russia (not such a big market money wise, still sizable), advocating for gay rights will get you quickly banned from the market.

The stance of most european nations on gay rights might not differ that much from the liberal stance in the US... when it comes to race relations however, you are probably in a different place. Again, our racism is 99% white people against white people. Outside of France, and UK maybe... but the farther east you get, the "whiter" the general population will get, because immigrants from africa seldom end up there.

And the farther south you get, the more anti-immigrant the current climate becomes... there is a reason why the five star movement seems to be winning in italy big time, and only the redical parties seem to have a chance in Greece.

So again. Europe is not the US. The government systems differ, the problems differ, the ethnic composition differs.

Now, there is a time and place to talk about RL issues, and there is a time and place to simply have fun and switch off the brain (or keep it processing fantasy worlds). Is a game someone plays to have fun the right place to lecture him? Probably not.

There are ways to address these issues "in-world", in which case its no longer a game lecturing about RL issues and more a game that takes inspirations from reallife issues, that MIGHT just cause one or the other player to think about the actual reallife issues that inspired it...

You know, instead of homosexuals not being able to marry, make it two fantasy races forbidden to marry? Instead of lecturing people about how bad atomic bombs are... come up with Hex cannons that render whole cities uninhabitable (real example from BoF4)?

That will go under the radar of the Kreml thought police for example, that will probably be accepted by the anti-SJW hatemob, and you probably have a higher chance to reach the people where the message is most effective: people not already firmly on your side.