Nobody in their right mind condones racism as viewed on a moral or ethical level, NOBODY.

shares are down and the AAA rating is now completely gone along with a 'negative' outlook....
The markets slide.The pound slides.

Given that article 50 has a fixed 2 year time limit, it makes sense not to hit that button immediately - hitting that sooner doesn't speed up the negotiations, it just reduces the possible time for negotiations.

It would seem to make sense to figure out what the plan is before triggering article 50 - since leave campaigners don't seem to have a clue what the plan is, with opinions being divided, and the referendum itself posing no plan, no wonder it's chaos. Perhaps a strategy should have been planned before putting the question to the people.

ETA: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/

Looks like Boris's proposal is "British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down." whilst people from the EU coming to the UK have to follow a points based immigration system.

The UK will still have access to the common market, whilst not paying in any money or following any of the EU rules.

Also he wants the moon on a stick, and to have his cake and eat it.

Other countries are going to want to keep trade open with them, they have the 5th largest world economy. Any country to deny trade with them simply because they are not a club member would be daft(as the English like to say). A set of trade regulations will be set up with everyone involved and life will continue as normal. They are not taking advantage of a system. Besides, the main issue was the rule of the people and losing their country to politicians who are not even of their kinship.

British people want Brits to make decisions for their country. Really not that crazy of a thought. Would you be ok with your next door neighbor regulating your daily routine? Telling you to turn your lights off at night or what color you can paint your house, which group of friends you can have over for a party or what television channels you can watch? These are completely arbitrary examples, but the point stands.

And how can people be surprised at delays and the fact that this is going to take time for Britain to mold their newly reformed political system into something tangible? Your are laughing at the Leave movement as nonsensical and with out plan, but governments do not form overnight, even if they have already be previously established in a different shape or form.

And we want to trade with the EU - you can't say that other countries would be willing to agreement with anything, whilst we agree with nothing. The other EU members know this. Expecting freedom of movement for British citizens, but not the same in reverse, is ridiculous. Yes, we'll get a "set of trade regulations", the question is what they are. No one is claiming there won't be any trade, the question is the terms of that trade - will it be free access to the common market, or tariffs.

A better analogy would be a group of neighbours coming together with an agreement on who's responsible for a shared fence, or say people in apartments having an agreement on how to pay repairs. Which law are you referring to that's analogous to the things you list? We do make our own decisions - that includes a decision to come to have some rules in agreement with other countries, for common trade. If you're American, I don't see you calling for your state to make its own laws, despite the federal Government having far more control. Do you like people telling you what colour you can paint your house?

This whole racists point of view on the argument just mystifies me. This is the same mentality a lot people are taking in the US as well, that if you have issues with immigrants, you are racist. I would argue that people don't give two thoughts to the color of your skin, people care about culture, values, ethics and any other number of defining moral characteristics. Very often, these things don't always align with the majority of the population. You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

I don't see anyone claiming being against immigration was racist. But there have been plenty of observed examples of racism in recent days since the vote (e.g., people telling people to "go home" based on their appearance even if they're British citizens who were born here).

If you're American, I don't see you calling for your state to make its own laws, despite the federal Government having far more control.

Alot of people complain about that, actually. Our civil war was fought around that issue (centering on the slavery question, ofcourse). It's a very contentious issue in American politics, with the Republican party pushing States as the predominate authority and the Democrat party pushing Federal gov, and some others (like myself), saying we want a small gov in general, and preferring an upside-down pyramid support structure (Republican party uses "small government" as a keyword for "big states" and "bigger corporations" - I personally disagree with that view).

Government is good and necessary, but there's always debate about how much influence government should have, and what the balance between what branches or layers (or governments) should be.

That's a real shitty move though, if I'm allowed to say.

Yep, you are, because it is.

I was on the remain side of the argument, but we've made our choice and now we should get on with it.

Boris has now gone on record as saying he wants to intensify EU co-operation.

It's slowly turning in to a situation where 72% of the people voted, but 100% of the people are going to be unhappy... (well, apart from all the racists; those guys now seem to think they have the country's backing to do what the fuck they like...)

This whole racists point of view on the argument just mystifies me. This is the same mentality a lot people are taking in the US as well, that if you have issues with immigrants, you are racist. I would argue that people don't give two thoughts to the color of your skin, people care about culture, values, ethics and any other number of defining moral characteristics. Very often, these things don't always align with the majority of the population. You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

I want you to define racism, how you view it in your mind, not a copy-past from the dictionary.

People love to shout racism like it means something. Half the time it doesn't. Nobody in their right mind condones racism as viewed on a moral or ethical level, NOBODY. Different cultures are expected to assimilate to their host country. Does that make people racist if that's what they expect?

It is not racist to want to control immigration for good well thought out reasons.

It becomes racist when large groups of people jump to the conclusion that the problems of the UK are due to immigration without looking at the facts. Why the sudden jump to immigration? Surely the spending decisions of the government are more likely to be a cause of stress to the NHS.

It is the sudden and uninformed willingness to blame immigration that is the racist part. Even if the evidence exists, no one is providing it.

Immigrants put more into the system than they take out. They are usually working age men who are less likely to take benefits. Public services are mostly stressed by the young and old (helpfully, some OAP's like to retire outside of the UK but perhaps they wont be able to do that for much longer).

It is also true that most leave votes come from areas practically untouched by immigration while the remain votes come from areas of high immigration. This is telling that it is just paranoia, fear and/or racism that makes people blame immigration.

On the note of "Working age men" and competitiveness in the north of England. If you think your entitled to not study/learn/adapt and still have a steady job for your entire life without any difficulty or future planning and then never get made redundant your living in the wrong century and you need to start acting like a responsible adult that learns and grows with age. There are exceptions, e.g. sick family makes it hard to move but for the majority they have the freedom to relocate or learn new skills, that's what everyone who ever made anything of themselves did/do.

This whole racists point of view on the argument just mystifies me. This is the same mentality a lot people are taking in the US as well, that if you have issues with immigrants, you are racist. I would argue that people don't give two thoughts to the color of your skin, people care about culture, values, ethics and any other number of defining moral characteristics. Very often, these things don't always align with the majority of the population. You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

This whole racists point of view on the argument just mystifies me. This is the same mentality a lot people are taking in the US as well, that if you have issues with immigrants, you are racist. I would argue that people don't give two thoughts to the color of your skin, people care about culture, values, ethics and any other number of defining moral characteristics. Very often, these things don't always align with the majority of the population. You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

Well done; you managed to completely misunderstand the misrepresent what I said... *slow clap*

I didn't make a single claim about immigration in the quoted text.
Nor, in the unquoted text, did I say that people who had problems with immigration are racists.

What I said was that the only people who are happy now are the racists.
You know, those people who have been putting leaflets through Polish people's doors telling them to go home.
Or, as reported on the news last night, the people who told a guy of Indian/Pakistani decent (based on skin tone and bone structure) that because we voted out he has to go home - the guy is Welsh. Was born in Wales. Has a Welsh accent.

Those people have been emboldened by the 'leave' vote as they now THINK that the majority is behind them; the fact they are racists means they are fucking morons anyway, so that belief makes sense from their twisted insane point of view.

So you are lying to yourself if you don't think people give two thoughts to the colour of your skin, because some people do. If they didn't they wouldn't be out there telling integrated 2nd and 3rd generation British people to 'go home' and 'get out because we voted out' and other less charming phrases because they aren't white.
(There are plenty of other stories about the place where people doing their job have been laughed at and told they have to go home now; or woke up the day of the result to find people shouting 'make Britain white' in connection to the leave vote. It doesn't take much to find evidence of people being racist idiots in connection with this vote.)

If you think otherwise then you are lying to yourself.
And we are talking 'Earth is the centre of the universe' level lying.

I would like to add that we only see overt racism from people who are "tough" and "hard" because they have the "balls" to behave this way.

Just as some people don't steal because its against the law, some people don't express their racist views because they don't want to be recognized as racist (and because it is also illegal). The referendum has brought racism out the closet but still the closet is only left ajar.

lemme chime in here as the swiss guy...

given the UK will soon be in a similar situation as switzerland when it comes to the EU (with more "weight" so to say because of the bigger size of the country, but a worse starting position because you got out of the EU while switzerland never was in)...

Most probably the UK will have to follow the same route of endless discussions and contracts with the EU to regulate trade and immigration. Prepare for some Looooong negotiations. And a lot of posing and delaying by the EU, just to make sure you feel treated like a second rate country.

As to immigration rules... either you join the schengen act again, which would of course make the reason a lot of UK citizen voted out void, or you will be treated like gambia, or china. Or switzerland, before we joined the schengen area, for that matter.

Unless the wake up call makes sure the EU rethinks how they interact with european countries not in the EU, trying to negotiate trade and immigration rules. Switzerland might profit that way a lot from the ruckus caused by the UK. Maybe in the future, when a country like switzerland wants "special treatment" from the EU, its no longer a "my way or the highway" stance from the EU...

What I would be worried about is the unity of the UK. Given staying in the EU was the main reasons the scotts are still in the UK, I would guess they would be organizing a new vote on that... and they need to do so fast, because that way they could stay in the EU while the rest of the UK (or maybe just england by that time) leaves it, while waiting too long means they need to rejoin (takes longer, and IDK if scotland (or NI for that matter) really reaches the financial minimums set by the EU for a joining country once the dust settles on the mess UK politicians got their country into).

lemme chime in here as the swiss guy...

given the UK will soon be in a similar situation as switzerland when it comes to the EU (with more "weight" so to say because of the bigger size of the country, but a worse starting position because you got out of the EU while switzerland never was in)...

Most probably the UK will have to follow the same route of endless discussions and contracts with the EU to regulate trade and immigration. Prepare for some Looooong negotiations. And a lot of posing and delaying by the EU, just to make sure you feel treated like a second rate country.

As to immigration rules... either you join the schengen act again, which would of course make the reason a lot of UK citizen voted out void, or you will be treated like gambia, or china. Or switzerland, before we joined the schengen area, for that matter.

Unless the wake up call makes sure the EU rethinks how they interact with european countries not in the EU, trying to negotiate trade and immigration rules. Switzerland might profit that way a lot from the ruckus caused by the UK. Maybe in the future, when a country like switzerland wants "special treatment" from the EU, its no longer a "my way or the highway" stance from the EU...

What I would be worried about is the unity of the UK. Given staying in the EU was the main reasons the scotts are still in the UK, I would guess they would be organizing a new vote on that... and they need to do so fast, because that way they could stay in the EU while the rest of the UK (or maybe just england by that time) leaves it, while waiting too long means they need to rejoin (takes longer, and IDK if scotland (or NI for that matter) really reaches the financial minimums set by the EU for a joining country once the dust settles on the mess UK politicians got their country into).

it is all well and good if countries want to control their borders (on the basis of sound reasons) and still access the single market but the problem is that if 1 country gets this deal that then all the countries will want the same deal.

At that point the issues becomes a lot more basic :

How do we deal with illegal immigration that will occur because each country now requires visas?

Will we see a return to sporadic cash in hand work? For example: a German restaurant along the board in the Netherlands hires a German waiter for cash - no taxes.

How do small villages along the borders fare? They would loose 50% of their customers in their radial vicinity.

Will tourism take a hit?

How do you handle countries with a low minimum wage? That would give the country an unfair advantage, its citizens can no longer leave for country X to find better work. If the labour supply cannot move (easily) then the factories will move to the labour supply.

The EU solves these problems, its not perfect but a Europe without free movement is a PITA.

If there is a better model i would like to hear it.

Also, if we ever want a world where companies can't hide their cash in tax havens then we the big trading blocs so the big deals can be made.

That's a real shitty move though, if I'm allowed to say.

Yep, you are, because it is.

I was on the remain side of the argument, but we've made our choice and now we should get on with it.

Boris has now gone on record as saying he wants to intensify EU co-operation.

It's slowly turning in to a situation where 72% of the people voted, but 100% of the people are going to be unhappy... (well, apart from all the racists; those guys now seem to think they have the country's backing to do what the fuck they like...)

This whole racists point of view on the argument just mystifies me. This is the same mentality a lot people are taking in the US as well, that if you have issues with immigrants, you are racist. I would argue that people don't give two thoughts to the color of your skin, people care about culture, values, ethics and any other number of defining moral characteristics. Very often, these things don't always align with the majority of the population. You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

I want you to define racism, how you view it in your mind, not a copy-past from the dictionary.

People love to shout racism like it means something. Half the time it doesn't. Nobody in their right mind condones racism as viewed on a moral or ethical level, NOBODY. Different cultures are expected to assimilate to their host country. Does that make people racist if that's what they expect?

It is not racist to want to control immigration for good well thought out reasons.

It becomes racist when large groups of people jump to the conclusion that the problems of the UK are due to immigration without looking at the facts. Why the sudden jump to immigration? Surely the spending decisions of the government are more likely to be a cause of stress to the NHS.

It is the sudden and uninformed willingness to blame immigration that is the racist part. Even if the evidence exists, no one is providing it.

Immigrants put more into the system than they take out. They are usually working age men who are less likely to take benefits. Public services are mostly stressed by the young and old (helpfully, some OAP's like to retire outside of the UK but perhaps they wont be able to do that for much longer).

It is also true that most leave votes come from areas practically untouched by immigration while the remain votes come from areas of high immigration. This is telling that it is just paranoia, fear and/or racism that makes people blame immigration.

On the note of "Working age men" and competitiveness in the north of England. If you think your entitled to not study/learn/adapt and still have a steady job for your entire life without any difficulty or future planning and then never get made redundant your living in the wrong century and you need to start acting like a responsible adult that learns and grows with age. There are exceptions, e.g. sick family makes it hard to move but for the majority they have the freedom to relocate or learn new skills, that's what everyone who ever made anything of themselves did/do.

Pretty much this. Here in the US there's a lot of people who are like "we can't just have wide open borders to every guy who wants to come in to the US" (most of those people are Trump supporters btw) and that would be an issue if we did have wide open borders to every random Joe who wants to come in....except we don't. A lot of folks don't realize that it's process to stay in the US legally is a pretty long and complex one.

We're pretty much having the same problem here, which is that some people really want to blame immigrants for all the problems in the US.

This whole racists point of view on the argument just mystifies me. This is the same mentality a lot people are taking in the US as well, that if you have issues with immigrants, you are racist. I would argue that people don't give two thoughts to the color of your skin, people care about culture, values, ethics and any other number of defining moral characteristics. Very often, these things don't always align with the majority of the population. You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

Well done; you managed to completely misunderstand the misrepresent what I said... *slow clap*

I didn't make a single claim about immigration in the quoted text.
Nor, in the unquoted text, did I say that people who had problems with immigration are racists.

What I said was that the only people who are happy now are the racists.
You know, those people who have been putting leaflets through Polish people's doors telling them to go home.
Or, as reported on the news last night, the people who told a guy of Indian/Pakistani decent (based on skin tone and bone structure) that because we voted out he has to go home - the guy is Welsh. Was born in Wales. Has a Welsh accent.

Those people have been emboldened by the 'leave' vote as they now THINK that the majority is behind them; the fact they are racists means they are fucking morons anyway, so that belief makes sense from their twisted insane point of view.

So you are lying to yourself if you don't think people give two thoughts to the colour of your skin, because some people do. If they didn't they wouldn't be out there telling integrated 2nd and 3rd generation British people to 'go home' and 'get out because we voted out' and other less charming phrases because they aren't white.
(There are plenty of other stories about the place where people doing their job have been laughed at and told they have to go home now; or woke up the day of the result to find people shouting 'make Britain white' in connection to the leave vote. It doesn't take much to find evidence of people being racist idiots in connection with this vote.)

If you think otherwise then you are lying to yourself.
And we are talking 'Earth is the centre of the universe' level lying.

I would like to add that we only see overt racism from people who are "tough" and "hard" because they have the "balls" to behave this way.

Just as some people don't steal because its against the law, some people don't express their racist views because they don't want to be recognized as racist (and because it is also illegal). The referendum has brought racism out the closet but still the closet is only left ajar.

Again, pretty much this. The referendum in the UK and Donald Trump in the US have brought out all the closet racists. A lot of people feel it's a reaction to globalization and the changes made by globalization.