@Gian-Reto
I understand what you say, I agree that endless grinding is not interesting for the majority of players. It is only interesting for the players who want to reach lvl 99 in D2 which is a real grind due to diminishing xp at the highest lvls. However the casual players are fine, there is no obligation to to that and they can finish the game around lvl 80-85.
Looking at the itemization in D2. When you have played for a long time you get to see the big picture. D2 has real good itemization that allows amazing character customization. When you farm items, there is not one sword of awesomeness. You farm tons of different item types, gems and craft materials. It doesn't feel like a grind if you enjoy having many different ways to improve your character. But again if the casual players would see this as a grind they are fine, they do not need very rare items to complete the game (killing Baal on hell difficulty).
Now here's the big issue that I think developers overlook. It's a good thing to have the hardcore players in your ARPG game and in your game community
Just think of the things hardcore D2 players or D2 fans did for the game.
- Creating fan sites with forums and trade forums (Baron's bazaar, Amazon Basin, diabloii.net, diablofans.com, are good examples). There is a wealth of information there about everything in the game and people form groups of friends or guilds.
- In D2 you can use the gems you find to re-roll the mods on magic and rare items. From what I've seen casual players are not into this because they're not shooting for perfect gear and consider it a waste of gems. The hardcore players are re-rolling. They want all the gems they can get their hands on because it allows to re-roll a specific item which is very efficient compared to monster drops for that specific item. You need to slay many monsters to have that item type drop because of the amount of different item types in the treasure classes. So.. hardcore players are asking for gems, casual players are happy to trade gems vs common items (set, unique, etc) and they help each other out and both benefit. General perfect gems for rolling charms, perfect skulls for rolling rares, perfect amethysts for crafting caster amulets and so on.
- The hardcore players may be more vocal (annoying?) for the developers but they help by reporting bugs, cheats and exploits. They can be very helpful during development for play test purposes and beta testing.
IMO, if developers do not take the hardcore players into account they make a mistake. Again I make a diablo example but it's what happened when Blizzard developed D3. The developers had no feel with the (mostly hardcore) reminder of the D2 players. They have developed D3 with mostly the casual players in mind and it backfired. I dare say that the way they have developed D3 has wasted millions of dollars in development costs. I know D3 sold very well but it was poorly received and Blizzard has (had) to make countless changes to the game to try win back the fans.
I said all this to keep pointing at the itemization in ARPGs. It's not bad design to have very rare items in the game as long as the itemization is such that casual players can play their game and are not obliged to farm / grind for very rare items. They could very well find something incredibly rare as a bonus such is the nature of RNG in these type of games. It's just awesome when it happens whether you're a hardcore player or not.
Hey, I am the last guy that would downplay the importance of hardcore players. I do enjoy my games hardcore. If a game is dumbed down so every noob understands it without having to dig through forum threads, listen to hours of youtube vids and other tutorials explaining the mechanic, or better yet, just read historical articles on armour thicknesses and how stuff physically works (given a game IS historical and adheres to real world physics to some degree), the game is not for me.
Now, I am aware that I am one of the few gamers left that do enjoy the upper half of the "hardcore" scale. Are there still enough to make games a big success? Success of the dark souls games seems to point that way. Are there enough players enjoying the real hardcore games to make 100m $ productions a success? I fear not.
I am not sure diablo 3 was REALLY big enough that it couldn't survive on hardcore fans. Yet blizzard is known for trying to reach the biggest possible audience with their games... I fear the days where blizzard games were REALLY hardcore have been over, for a long time. They might still try to reach the e-sports crowd, and I guess they most probably still try to satisfy the hardcore audience somewhat. But if you are looking for an oldschool hardcore oriented ARPG, Blizzard might no longer be the right developer for you.
As to the value of hardcore fans. They have a tremendous value for the smaller devs with limited marketing budget. There, a small bunch of really hardcore fans can contribute a HUGE amount of buzz to the total effort by spreading the word and keeping less hardcore fans engaged.
When we start talking AAA games, this value starts to diminish. Also, hardcore fans are always a double edged sword. BECAUSE they know so much about the game, BECAUSE they feel so entitled, they can also do a lot of damage given a developer makes an unpopular decision. Yes, I know bitching and moaning is a good sign, as it shows people still care. And many smaller devs will happily put up with it because of the benefits they get thanks to their community.
Anyway, I think you have a point. Many smaller devs will thinks along the same lines. Blizzard and other bigs devs might not. They have different goals, as they need to reach a different audience to make a RoI.
Lastly, just because a player dislikes grinding does not make him a casual player. That might be true in case of games like D2 where the grind is actually the only end game component left, if you strip away all the perks you get from grinding. Being ready to put up with extended grinds will separate the true hardcore fan from the others in such games.
My point is: is this really necessary? Do people play these games just for the grind? Or do they just put up with the grind so they can enjoy the small part of the game that is not grindy? Given that most of the game IS just grinding, if you include the endgame and not just the story campaign...
If there are players that love grinding so much they play the game just for the grind, then there might still be a market for grind heavy games. Given that this audience most probably is rather small (seeing how VOCAL people bitch and moan about the grind in forums, just as much as people bitch and moan about the lack of grind (mostly because it devalues their achievements if someone can get a better item with a short grind and some luck)... vocal people are always "hardcore fans" of some sort), I dare to say that you should look for Indie games to get your hardcore grind game (Grindcore? :))... This is where Indie games shine, delivering niche expierience to hardcore communitys to small to warrant AAA treatement, but loyal and vocal enough to keep a game without marketing budget afloat.
As for the big AAA expieriences, I think they will not become Grindfree in the near future... but I think they will NOT, ever, cater to anyone else than the average casual first and foremost. Because this is your most common gamer nowadays.
Having said that, I feel there is something else to add... first some personal expierience from a player that is NOT into longwinded grind:
I still remember how some Grindlovers made Gearbox change droprates and remove city chests in the original Borderlands so you had to do tedious grindy bossruns to roll for good gear. As a Borderlands fan with little time to play, that game was awesome before for me. I could do some New Haven runs to get a chance of high end gear to play around with. After the patch, I had to do boring boss runs just get a chance.
Should I get the best sniperrifle just by jumping around in a city, without seeing any enemy, looting two chest and then rinsing and repeating? Mmmh, no, that sound kinda broken. BUT: this is a f*cking singleplayer game! No one is affected by me shortcutting the item grind, just so I have nicer gear to play around while I continue with the story instead of doing grindy dungeons runs over and over.
This was what kinda killed Borderlands for me after having finished the story, and which kinda killed BL 2. BL2 already started with MMO like droprates and no rares in chests. Add to that the RIDICOLOUS difference in powerlevel between a white and even purple weapon, and the difficulty ramping up quickly that you HAD to get your mitts on a appropriate level purple at least to stand any chance even continuing the story, and there was a lot of grind necessary just to get on with the mission without having to be madly skilled at making subpar weapons work. And that game was STILL a singleplayer game first and foremost (you could play coop, and I think there was a limited PVP element. Given how badly balanced the characters and skills were, I don't think difference in gear would have played too much into winning or loosing PvP... so really, it was just grind lover elitism forcing everyone else into grinding too (I always hoped they got pounded by more skilled players with a better build but subpar gear in PVP :)))
Long story short: there are hardcore players that like their games complex and are a loyal, vocal fan, which do NOT like grindy games. Hardcore =/= grindy. So don't assume because it has been long a trait of ARPG to be excessively grindy does make the Grind hardcore, or non-grindy ARPG less hardcore. Hardcore fans are just fans that want a complex game that takes time to master, and a game that will make them stand out from the casual masses. Prolonged grind can certainly help with the latter, and given the build options are complex, can also "help" with the first as not everyone has the stamina to put in the time needed to really start experimenting with their build.
Yes, hardcore players tend to invest more time into a game, thus they have the time needed to get somewhere with grind heavy end games. Does not mean that every player that has the ability to invest many hours per day into a game wants to "waste" this play time grinding...
The problem here is less hardcore vs. casual. Its players putting up with grinding vs. players that do not. This has as much to do with players just having more and more options, and being less ready to stay with a game once the excitement wanes due to end games resembling more work than play, or endless hours of playing the slot machines at best, as it has with the player base getting more and more casual.
Point is, a game that is non-grindy can STILL have a loyal hardcore fanbase given that it can keep them entertained somehow. D2 seems to keep a loyal fanbase with its prolongued grind. Just because D3 goes in a different directions does not make it any less "hardcore fanbase oriented"... that might be your opinion, and its a very valid opinion...
But that is just your opinion. Other players might have a different one. And just because a certain subset of hardcore players might mingle among themselves on certain forums and voice similar complaints about D3 does not make that necessarily true for most players.
