Now take a step back and assume I have a Western background but am not American. Actually, don't assume, just set that statement as fact. From my point of view, significant parts of the US are extremely religious (either the status quo or active and serious attempts to move it there). In my mind I cannot look at the US and think of it as a secular state. Christianity (not as a set of base values but actual, hardcore religion) has an extremely strong influence there and a loud outside voice. That's actually a significant parts of the US' problem with Muslim states: it's ridiculously simple to paint the US as just modern crusaders.

Certainly true for some parts of the States, but huge parts of the country are no more religious than Germany or France. Even in the bible-thumping southern and midwestern states, the "Praise Jesus!" types are a distinct minority. The whole country is rolling our eyes at the crazy dipsticks that are trying to pass legislation about who can and can't go into certain bathrooms and who can marry who.

The difference is that there aren't Christian extremist groups going around beheading people in the name of the old testament. Actions are more important than written text, and Islam has shown it's actions in modern days are horrific, and tolerated by moderates at high levels.

So what you are saying is, once I have found some Christian fundamentalists killing in the name of their faith we can agree Christians are exactly as bad? No matter how fringe, low-number compared to the total adherents of the faith and compatibility with more widely accepted teachings of the faith?

Because in that case some Norwegian dude immediately comes to mind. I'm pretty sure with some minuscule effort one could find some interesting samples by just focusing on, say, attacks on abortion clinics or people who work there. Normalized over history most religions (and certainly both Christianity and Islam) have so much blood on their hands that it does not matter. I'm not interested in arguing who is worse when picking a sufficiently adjusted temporal window to sample current events.

The problem is not Islam, the problem is religion in politics and politicians using religion to further their own interests. Well, and religious whackjobs.

If the bombings in Boston were literally the only Muslim terrorist incidents we knew, that comparison might fit.

I want to reiterate that I don't buy into the whole "Islam is inherently evil" thing that is now hyper-intensified in this topic, but there is nowhere near an equivalence between the state of Muslims today and the state of Christians today. The day entire nations behead infidels on television or The Pope calls upon all good Catholics to murder someone for speaking ill of Jesus, or the day an American rams a plane into the Burj Khalifa shouting a Hail Mary is the day you'll be able to convince most people here otherwise.

You can fit all the Christian terrorists out there into a small, quaint house (which sounds like the world's worst reality TV show). You couldn't have fit all the Muslim terrorists into Kowloon Walled City.

You can fit all the Christian terrorists out there into a small, quaint house (which sounds like the world's worst reality TV show)

That would actually be pretty neat. Like Jesus camp taken to the extreme.

Heck, the bathroom thing is worth a debate in and of itself.

I don't even understand how this became a thing. Why was this issue even raised in the first place? What prompted the legislation to be written? I don't understand it. I think this was the thing that really showed the Republican voter base just how fundamentalist Cruz was, where he actually spent time justifying a position people's bathroom behaviour.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/28/politics/caitlyn-jenner-bathroom-trump-tower-donald-trump/

The difference is that there aren't Christian extremist groups going around beheading people in the name of the old testament. Actions are more important than written text, and Islam has shown it's actions in modern days are horrific, and tolerated by moderates at high levels.

So what you are saying is, once I have found some Christian fundamentalists killing in the name of their faith we can agree Christians are exactly as bad? No matter how fringe, low-number compared to the total adherents of the faith and compatibility with more widely accepted teachings of the faith?

Because in that case some Norwegian dude immediately comes to mind. I'm pretty sure with some minuscule effort one could find some interesting samples by just focusing on, say, attacks on abortion clinics or people who work there. Normalized over history most religions (and certainly both Christianity and Islam) have so much blood on their hands that it does not matter. I'm not interested in arguing who is worse when picking a sufficiently adjusted temporal window to sample current events.

The problem is not Islam, the problem is religion in politics and politicians using religion to further their own interests. Well, and religious whackjobs.

You mean something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

If you are not an Islamist, then trust me: You do not want to live in a predominately Islamic nation. Chances are that it would be a living hell for you.

Neither would living in a nation imposing Christian laws on its citizens by pleasant for anyone not hardcore old-testament Christian.

What you just said is kind of silly. Christianity and its values(I am agnostic by the way) are normal American culture. Islam and its values are normal middle-eastern culture. So why is America the evil one for trying to assimilate outsiders? America is the only country that gets singled out and condemned for wanting to keep the country American. The middle-east most certainly wants to keep its own values and belief system, but there are no outcries when a Christian women(who is Pakistani) is taken to court and sentenced to execution for blasphemy of the prophet Mohammad by her simply talking about her opinion with some friends who turned her in. Where is the world outcry? Imagine if someone was sentenced to death for insulting God in America?

Now take a step back and assume I have a Western background but am not American. Actually, don't assume, just set that statement as fact. From my point of view, significant parts of the US are extremely religious (either the status quo or active and serious attempts to move it there). In my mind I cannot look at the US and think of it as a secular state. Christianity (not as a set of base values but actual, hardcore religion) has an extremely strong influence there and a loud outside voice. That's actually a significant parts of the US' problem with Muslim states: it's ridiculously simple to paint the US as just modern crusaders.

There is a lot of meat to deal with in the rest of the quote but unfortunately I do have a day job and my days of trying to argue sense into the Internet at all costs are a bit behind me.

And all of those violent quotes that are spat out from the Quran which you hesitate to believe, they are actually true. You can look them up in the printed, circulated version of todays Quran. And there exists a lot more than what you have seen mentioned here.

I have at no point in my post doubted that the quran contains some pretty strong stuff. I have just added that the bible does as well. For some reason the people complaining most loudly about the quran also seem to be the most blind to similar failings in the bible.
Also, to be fair, a lot of those extreme passages (in either book) become significantly more benign when you talk them over with an actual scholar of the relevant religion. On the other hand, the religious whackjobs on either side just need that one selective quote to whip themselves into a frenzy, so does it really matter what things mean in context?

You are proving my point with what you just said. What does "A western background" mean? Do you live in the United States? Are you a citizen? If you answered yes to both of these, you are an American. If you hold duel citizenship, you are still an American as well as what ever your native country may be. You are both.

So again, all you focused on was America and how there exist an extreme sect of the religious community and that it has influence. From your point of view, you say America is in no way a secular state. Now I will propose you a question...

Do you agree that the same thing can be said about middle-eastern countries? If not worse and more amplified?

IF YOU ANSWERED YES, why are you not flame spraying the middle-east? Why is America absorbing the blow of pc? Why do you not dare condemn the middle-east for the same thing? You call American Christians modern day crusaders(which is quite the exaggeration), but do not dare point a finger at immigrating Muslims into the states or the ones in their home country?

You are lying to yourself.

Also to even state that you are too busy with a job insinuates nobody else here has one and that you are above the conversation. Funny thing is, you are still participating in the conversation, and I can presume most of us here have jobs, not just you. After all, this is America...

Where does it end? Ban Muslims because Islam is a religion of hate. Kick illegal immigrants out because they don't have a piece of paper that says they are American citizens.

Those two issues are not the same thing. At all.

The USA is NOT a Christian nation. One might say that honestly 100 years ago, but not now.

At least 57 nations have been Islamized and every one of them were done so by Islamic force. People need to remember that.

South America and Mexico was Christianized by the Spain and Portugal, Australia and Canada by the UK, Africa by the Europeans, and the US (Native Americans), Caribbean, Alaska, and Hawaii by the US. And all those nations were Christianized by force. People need to not forget that.

The problem is not Islam, the problem is religion in politics and politicians using religion to further their own interests. Well, and religious whackjobs.

The same can be said about any ideology, including atheism. The problem isn't religion, but ideologies - religious or otherwise - that people passionately believe to such an extent that they'd murder or oppress others who disagree with them.

The Chinese Cultural Revolution and the USSR's ideological purges were not just irreligious, but anti-religious. They were ideologically driven, with the leadership taking advantage of their sway over the masses to further their own interests. Over 80 million people died as a result.

To say "the problem is religion" is to look with one eye closed, blind to your own sides' transgressions.

The problem is not religion in politics - it's people in politics. People have different ideas - from religion or philosophy or otherwise - and want to fight to make their ideas govern everyone else.

Further, many of the religious wars were directed by armies of people who stood to lose or gain control of land and resources - it was influence and economic-driven, with religion used to sway the masses to support the wars. Do you really believe that if religion didn't exist, the kings and emperors wouldn't find some other excuse to fight? If the "Holy Roman Emperors" dropped the word 'Holy' from their titles, would they be any less power-hungry? If the kings weren't kings by ""divine-right"", would they be any less eager to send their citizens to their deaths?

"When people impute special vices to the Christian Church, they seem entirely to forget that the world has these vices much more. The Church has been cruel; but the world has been much more cruel. The Church has plotted; but the world has plotted much more. The Church has been superstitious; but it has never been so superstitious as the world is when left to itself." - GK Chesterton

Where does it end? Ban Muslims because Islam is a religion of hate. Kick illegal immigrants out because they don't have a piece of paper that says they are American citizens. America is built on Christian values? Where? In church I was taught worship only God, respect all people (the old love your neighbor as yourself), be humble, be honest, live a moral life, be generous with time and money (donate time and money to help those in need), practice what you preach (don't be a hypocrite), don't be self-righteous, don't hold a grudge, and forgive others. These were repeated almost daily when I was younger. So how does banning Muslims fit into those values?

Its called separation of church and state. Kicking illegal immigrants out because they don't have the legal right to be in the US is the written rule. Let it be known that civil rights are supposed to be reserved for American citizens PER LAW, not illegal immigrants. Yours arguments purpose thus far have only been to incite more argument, you are not debating anything. You are simply arguing to argue without a point.

The difference is that there aren't Christian extremist groups going around beheading people in the name of the old testament. Actions are more important than written text, and Islam has shown it's actions in modern days are horrific, and tolerated by moderates at high levels.

So what you are saying is, once I have found some Christian fundamentalists killing in the name of their faith we can agree Christians are exactly as bad? No matter how fringe, low-number compared to the total adherents of the faith and compatibility with more widely accepted teachings of the faith?

Because in that case some Norwegian dude immediately comes to mind. I'm pretty sure with some minuscule effort one could find some interesting samples by just focusing on, say, attacks on abortion clinics or people who work there. Normalized over history most religions (and certainly both Christianity and Islam) have so much blood on their hands that it does not matter. I'm not interested in arguing who is worse when picking a sufficiently adjusted temporal window to sample current events.

The problem is not Islam, the problem is religion in politics and politicians using religion to further their own interests. Well, and religious whackjobs.

You mean something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

What I see are

Central African Republic:

Central African sectarian violence that's a backlash of Christians killing Muslims because of Muslim terrorist attacks.

India:

An extremely small group of Christians has carried out around 4~ attacks since the 90's, and has been unanimously condemned by fellow Christians.

A group that killed 1,000~ people over a 1 year period, then declared peace with the government in 1993, and hasn't been a problem since.

A group of 15 people that tried to Convert Hindus and killed no one.

Lebanon:

Not too sure about these events, but it seems like a Christian militia tried to fight government forces. The PLO counter-attacked and killed many more.

If anyone can summarize that one better/knows more about the issue, feel free to offer a different interpretation.

Uganda:

They're not a Christian group... I'm not sure why this one's on here

A quasi-religious movement that mixes some aspects of Christian beliefs with its own brand of spiritualism, it is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the "Holy Spirit"

United States:

Several attacks which killed 0-1 people, several abortion clinic bombings that were done when no one was in there, to avoid hurting people.

So around 1-2k~ casualties max, with the vast majority being done in unstable territories... Meanwhile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_linked_to_ISIL

That isn't even a comprehensive list, as many Muslims terrorists don't profess an ideal before suicide bombing.

It's also worth noting that Christians who do these killings enjoy virtually no support from the local populations, unlike Muslim attackers who can have double digit support in the region.