I'm working on a caveman fps / rpg / simulator.

in the game, one can attack to subdue, or to kill. similar to attack to subdue in original D&D.

subdued opponents can be captured (if you have a rope).

in the game, you can interact with everything in the environment (like in The SIMs), right down to the last plant, rock, tree, and bush (of significant size). This includes captured prisoners.

So when you capture a hostile caveman, and you walk up to them and select them by hitting the space bar, you get the "Captured caveman" menu:

Captured caveman...

Eat

Kill, then eat

Torture for no reason

etc

and then the "Torture caveman" menu...

Disembowel

Fart in general direction

Strip flesh

Wound

Wow, that seems to be an ambitious game!

One thing to consider is how exactly those acts will be depicted in the game. You mention that it's a FPS/RPG/SIM so that would make me assume that the funnier actions aren't really a part of it and I would also assume that you're looking a 3D assets instead of facing sprites like old FPS games like DOOM and Wolfenstien.

So with those 2 assumptions down, I'd say that this game wouldn't be getting anything less than a mature rating purely based off the subject matter; a "teen" rating just isn't going to happen. Violent content, mature themes, and torture can all bump up their rating by themselves. If their are any visual representations of those acts, then you might get an "AO" or "adults only" rating. AO ratings don't necessarily mean that it has nudity or even sexual scenes, but something that would be considered difficult subject matter for the average folk to deal with. Heck, you could create a brilliant non-violent thriller that could get an AO rating based off the themes presented in the game coupled with fear mechanics and dialogue.

But if I were creating this game, I'd lean away from realism in the graphics so that "graphic violence" could turn into "cartoon violence". Sure, mature themes and even the rape would still be pretty damn horrific even when taking the edge off of it with more friendly graphics, but some times you gotta look at what you really need to achieve your game goals.

When you think about it though, if you don't have a reproduction system just yet, then you don't need the rape/mate/whatever sexual in the game. If you do want to build in a breeding system, maybe make it so you have to bring those you captured back to your tribes camp and after a while they become members of tribe, thus making them a potential willing mate or even opening side quests needed to win the affections of potential mates?

I dunno man, it's a delicate subject to say the least, but like I said, I personally would try to find some work-a-rounds, maybe cut some stuff, and even lessen the graphic impact with stylized design. One thing about stylized graphics is that critics might think your trying to make a game for kids with such mature themes, but that'll just make it free advertising.

Anyway, good luck sir.

Well, you can kind of sidestep the issue a little bit by use of terminology. I mean, saying "kill prisoner" is essentially the same thing in terms of gameplay as "murder prisoner", yet if you use the word murder you are casting an inherent moral judgement. I would argue that all you want to do as the designer is to provide tools that the player can use in whatever way he/she sees fit. It's not your place to be placing judgement on the morality of any given action.

So the list you give in your post is torture, rape, murder, slavery, and cannibalism. I covered murder, so leave that one out. What if the prisoners had like a willpower bar or something, and you could deplete it by beating or otherwise hurting them. Then also implement the functionality to make demands, whether its a demand for information, or a demand that the prisoner clean the cave and you make the likelihood that the demand will be met dependant on that willpower bar. Well, now you have torture and slavery without ever having actually said torture and slavery or casting a moral judgement on the situation.

As for rape and cannibalism, well I would ask if there is a gameplay related benefit to doing those things? You said that there is no offspring, so honestly, why include rape? You can say you want realism, but if there is no real gameplay benefit then why is rape any different than, for example, using the bathroom (metaphorically speaking), or gazing at the night sky, or cuddling with a partner, or singing a song, or any of the myriad of other things human beings do that likely aren't in your game. With cannibalism, is there some kind of "food" resource that could be filled by killing a prisoner? Maybe you could just use the command "kill prisoner" on the captive, and then "convert to food" on the carcass. Again, you're removing the "rightness" or "wrongness" of the action by putting it in the most basic terms.

You mention that it's a FPS/RPG/SIM so that would make me assume that the funnier actions aren't really a part of it and I would also assume that you're looking a 3D assets instead of facing sprites like old FPS games like DOOM and Wolfenstien.

Correct, and correct. there are no plans to make hostile captured cavemen live with their mothers-in-law, etc <g>.

Yes this is a fully immersive 3D world. After 13 months i've finally gotten enough completed that you can really start playing it. Its a complete little paleo-world, its really cool!

So with those 2 assumptions down, I'd say that this game wouldn't be getting anything less than a mature rating purely based off the subject matter; a "teen" rating just isn't going to happen.

Yeah, you're probably right. Oh well, its not really designed for kids anyway. previous versions were less realistic, so they never touched on these types of subjects. And there was not much in the way of blood graphics, resulting in a game suitable for teens.

I'm not planning on "dawn of the dead" graphics for this version either, the emphasis is on gameplay and simulator realism over

pretty pictures.

If you do want to build in a breeding system, maybe make it so you have to bring those you captured back to your tribes camp and after a while they become members of tribe, thus making them a potential willing mate or even opening side quests needed to win the affections of potential mates?

Already on the todo list. : )

but probably for version 3.1. : (

What if the prisoners had like a willpower bar or something, and you could deplete it by beating or otherwise hurting them. Then also implement the functionality to make demands, whether its a demand for information, or a demand that the prisoner clean the cave and you make the likelihood that the demand will be met dependant on that willpower bar. Well, now you have torture and slavery without ever having actually said torture and slavery or casting a moral judgement on the situation.

Oh! Brilliant!

almost like attacking to subdue again.

and then add the capability to give orders to a captive caveman.

implement the means, but don't use the names.

i used a similar method to model intoxication.

but if there is no real gameplay benefit then why is rape any different than, for example, using the bathroom (metaphorically speaking), or gazing at the night sky, or cuddling with a partner, or singing a song, or any of the myriad of other things human beings do that likely aren't in your game.

yes, i think rape can be left off the list.

FYI:

bathroom: not modeled. you're assumed to go when you need to go. so no SIms with full bladders here, leaving puddles on the carpet.

stargazing action: prereqs: location=outside, night, <75% cloud cover, no precip. provides mood boost, increases navigation skill slightly.

cuddling: no romance or mating modeled yet. just friendly/hostile relations.

singing action: prereqs: none. provides mood boost. increases singing skill. mood boost to nearby friendlies, based on singing skill.

With cannibalism, is there some kind of "food" resource that could be filled by killing a prisoner? Maybe you could just use the command "kill prisoner" on the captive, and then "convert to food" on the carcass. Again, you're removing the "rightness" or "wrongness" of the action by putting it in the most basic terms.

that would be meat.

and the caveman equivalent of the "butcher animal" action on the "dead animal" menu.

right now, the "dead caveman" menu has: "search body", and "bury caveman". bury caveman has not yet been implemented. I have't figured out how to do it. the player would need to be able to move or transport a carcass somehow. "move dead caveman" action? "pickup dead caveman" action?

So, how would that sound....

Dead caveman...

Bury

Search body

Cancel

That's not so bad. Of course, the player will be able to figure out whats up when they can butcher a caveman, then eat the meat. Oh god! more research! "is there a special health risk from eating human flesh?" I swear! the things i have to research for this game! <g>

i think you've come up with the answer, keep it clinical and detached.

As for the graphics, the plan is to do a canned 3rd person animation of the player undertaking a given action using the game graphics engine, similar to the "mount" and "dismount" horse animations in Oblivion. At the moment, it simply shows a message saying what action you're doing and your progress. Animations of killing a prisoner would be the same as images seen in combat, so nothing special there. Attacking to subdue, same deal.

Sounds like it would work pretty well. Thanks for the suggestion!

Wow I'd really like to see this game in action, it sounds great.

Wow I'd really like to see this game in action, it sounds great.

hopefully it wont be too long.

i have to do the quest generators, a few small features, final graphics, audio, and play testing. I found a demo of the original version online, so i can just rip the audio from that for a start. But the game is already complete enough that i've been thinking i need to get some beta testers. but I test everything myself first, so usually the only feedback i ever get from testers is "no problems, works fine" (yeah - cause i tested it first), and "i like the new feature better than the way it used to do it" (well, that's why i put it in!).

I put a couple of screenshots up in my gallery, if you'd like to get an idea of what its like. Note that its still placeholder graphics, just 4 tiles for each ground texture, only 2 kinds of rock meshes and 4 rock textures, only one grass mesh and texture, plants aren't at random rotations, simple flat water quads for all water, etc.

but behind the primer paint job, lurks an entire little paleo-world you can interact with. its been 10 years since i last worked on this game and played it. I forgot how cool it is. You actually have to work to stay alive, and when you successfully make that first stone knife, you feel like GOD! <g>

i have to do the quest generators, a few small features, final graphics, audio, and play testing. I found a demo of the original version online, so i can just rip the audio from that for a start. But the game is already complete enough that i've been thinking i need to get some beta testers. but I test everything myself first, so usually the only feedback i ever get from testers is "no problems, works fine" (yeah - cause i tested it first), and "i like the new feature better than the way it used to do it" (well, that's why i put it in!).

your game sounds very cool. can you link the original demo? good luck

your game sounds very cool. can you link the original demo? good luck

From: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18807&start=960

I haven't downloaded it yet (50 mg file, cell modem, very weak/no signal), but i did start a DL once, and the link was active.

This should be the demo version of Caveman v1.3. It lets you play characters for one game month, as i recall.

well, i just tried it and got a 500 server error...