I've noticed an incredibly high amount of sound designers and composers posting topics in the Help Wanted board, with titles like "Composer Available" or "OFFERED: Music Sound Design". It's great to see so many sound guys diving into the game field, but I'm curious as to the ramifications of this. For those of you who have posted topics similar to that, have you gotten responses from developers? I remember one guy posting a topic that he was looking for paid work and ended up getting hired at a major company in his area, but other then that most of those topics seem to have few responses. I guess I'm just wondering if the developers who post topics looking for teams, even the few that need sound guys (and the even fewer who are paying) are actually looking at posts like this, or are they just waiting for responses to their own posts?

Another concern is regarding those who post topics saying "Music Composer Will Work For Free!". I've heard from numerous professionals that things like this can cause a negative impact for both the individual engineer, and the overall sound community. Now let's get something straight, I am not knocking anyone who works for free. Most of my current projects are non-paying, but there can be a big difference between agreeing to work for free, and claiming up front in a public forum that you're not asking for any money. Now this is just my opinion, but when stuff like that starts to happen a lot, and everyone on the boards is seeing these posts from sound guys wanting to work for free, do you think this makes a negative impression on them about our field? I'm sure many of you have worked with someone that doesn't entirely understand what it is that we do (especially sound designers), and do you think that when they see posts like that, it makes them think less of our jobs? I run into this a lot when doing film or TV work for inexperienced people, especially in a film school. They have a very bad understanding of what we do, or how important it is, and as such they don't even think of us as an expenditure. So I'm curious what everyone here thinks on the subject. For those who have been here longer, is this a new trend? Or do you think this is a good way to attract potential clients? Just want to hear your thoughts.

-Pete

I really think that it very much depends. Experienced developers will understand the importance of proper sound and music design in their games, but small studios/projects may not have the budget to pay developers for their work. Not having a budget (or having a limited budget I should say) does not mean that the studio does not have things that they could teach that individual. I guess what I am trying to say is that if people want to work for free to build up experience working on actual projects, I don't see any problem with that. I don't think it will negatively impact people's perspectives (speaking as a software engineer here) on sound/music because I think developers (at least experienced ones) are aware of what they are getting when it comes to free help. The internet has made us all a globally connected community and it is natural to expect that the increased availability of services will offer a variety of price points, but I think you get what you pay for.

That all being said I do think it has become quite difficult to determine for both sides who to select, and good offers may get lost in the "noise" of people posting. I think we could use a new system to find people and projects than a forum... or we need to have the forum work differently.

I've noticed an incredibly high amount of sound designers and composers posting topics in the Help Wanted board, with titles like "Composer Available" or "OFFERED: Music Sound Design". It's great to see so many sound guys diving into the game field, but I'm curious as to the ramifications of this. For those of you who have posted topics similar to that, have you gotten responses from developers? I remember one guy posting a topic that he was looking for paid work and ended up getting hired at a major company in his area, but other then that most of those topics seem to have few responses. I guess I'm just wondering if the developers who post topics looking for teams, even the few that need sound guys (and the even fewer who are paying) are actually looking at posts like this, or are they just waiting for responses to their own posts?

Another concern is regarding those who post topics saying "Music Composer Will Work For Free!". I've heard from numerous professionals that things like this can cause a negative impact for both the individual engineer, and the overall sound community. Now let's get something straight, I am not knocking anyone who works for free. Most of my current projects are non-paying, but there can be a big difference between agreeing to work for free, and claiming up front in a public forum that you're not asking for any money. Now this is just my opinion, but when stuff like that starts to happen a lot, and everyone on the boards is seeing these posts from sound guys wanting to work for free, do you think this makes a negative impression on them about our field? I'm sure many of you have worked with someone that doesn't entirely understand what it is that we do (especially sound designers), and do you think that when they see posts like that, it makes them think less of our jobs? I run into this a lot when doing film or TV work for inexperienced people, especially in a film school. They have a very bad understanding of what we do, or how important it is, and as such they don't even think of us as an expenditure. So I'm curious what everyone here thinks on the subject. For those who have been here longer, is this a new trend? Or do you think this is a good way to attract potential clients? Just want to hear your thoughts.

-Pete

Hey,

I've received several job offers through this board - and I don't think the people who work for free affect my business in any way, as companies who are serious about selling a good game know that they will need to hire paid professionals. Simple as that.

That said, I agree with shadowisadog: we could make things more apparent by dividing the "Help Wanted" section into two parts: "Paid Work" and "Unpaid Work", the way the guys and gals at the TIGSource Forums handle it.

"Paid" means that pay is guaranteed, i.e. there is a budget.

Cheers,
Moritz

I should rephrase. I don't think us working for free is causing a problem. But I am wondering if the posts themselves, coming from audio guys, saying they'll work for free, is. Like I said, I'm not talking down to anyone who works for free, I totally understand projects with little to no budget (yet) and how rewarding they can be. But I am glad to hear people are getting gigs through the site. This is a great place.

I really think that it very much depends. Experienced developers will understand the importance of proper sound and music design in their games, but small studios/projects may not have the budget to pay developers for their work. Not having a budget (or having a limited budget I should say) does not mean that the studio does not have things that they could teach that individual. I guess what I am trying to say is that if people want to work for free to build up experience working on actual projects, I don't see any problem with that. I don't think it will negatively impact people's perspectives (speaking as a software engineer here) on sound/music because I think developers (at least experienced ones) are aware of what they are getting when it comes to free help. The internet has made us all a globally connected community and it is natural to expect that the increased availability of services will offer a variety of price points, but I think you get what you pay for.

That all being said I do think it has become quite difficult to determine for both sides who to select, and good offers may get lost in the "noise" of people posting. I think we could use a new system to find people and projects than a forum... or we need to have the forum work differently.

I totally agree. I think it might be beneficial to have a help wanted board, where project leaders looking to find people could post, and maybe another board, where people could post themselves as available, with links to their work.

[color="#000000"] Good points here. I think the people that do say t hey will work for free are usually messing with the value of game music, but then again there are so many developers out here it may not even make a difference. Think about it, there's about a billion people on the internet..how many are developers?

I've got a couple of developers contact me on this forum for game music work because they seen my posts in help wanted. I don't have a steady stream of developers contacting me for work..it is a bit unstable, and sometimes the developers that do contact me never reply back after I tell them my rates....I did my first game project for free because I needed the experience , but i'm usually not going to work for free, especially if it's a nice song project where you need music themes and sound effects. It takes time and talent to do what we do.

I also work with rappers because I make hip hop/rap beats as well...and it's the same thing with them...they are expecting free beats for their projects, but I won't give away my work for free because I need to eat

I think the best thing to do in our field is to network...[color="#000000"]On one side you network, make friends, build clientele, be humble and creative, gaining loyal fans that love you and your music..and let your music speak for itself
on the other side you will be basically running a "business" and marketing your services to developers.

[color="#000000"] Good points here. I think the people that do say t hey will work for free are usually messing with the value of game music, but then again there are so many developers out here it may not even make a difference. Think about it, there's about a billion people on the internet..how many are developers?

I've got a couple of developers contact me on this forum for game music work because they seen my posts in help wanted. I don't have a steady stream of developers contacting me for work..it is a bit unstable, and sometimes the developers that do contact me never reply back after I tell them my rates....I did my first game project for free because I needed the experience , but i'm usually not going to work for free, especially if it's a nice song project where you need music themes and sound effects. It takes time and talent to do what we do.

I also work with rappers because I make hip hop/rap beats as well...and it's the same thing with them...they are expecting free beats for their projects, but I won't give away my work for free because I need to eat

I think the best thing to do in our field is to network...[color="#000000"]On one side you network, make friends, build clientele, be humble and creative, gaining loyal fans that love you and your music..and let your music speak for itself
on the other side you will be basically running a "business" and marketing your services to developers.

Great advice for everyone here. Very well said sir.

There's always been a high number of audio folks in this industry since I've been active in it. I don't think that's ever going to change. Thankfully there always seems to be new studios and huddles of developers popping up here and there. The key with networking is to understand that for every 10 attempts at getting work - you might only get two to three responses. Also sometimes it can take a client a long time to respond, which might feel like you were overlooked. Once I had a client respond 6 months after the fact and I had completely forgotten I even reached out to them.

So with networking it's very important to consider:

- how do you network? Simply spamming everyone you can think of isn't always very successful.

- when and where do you network and interact with clients? Coming off desperate and needy doesn't give potential clients much confidence in you or your work. Smothering clients (or even peers) is another bad approach.

- what niche do you fill? Are you trying to be a jack of all trades or specialize in certain genre(s)/style(s)?

- what type of work do you want to find? Are you looking for top dollar projects? Mobile projects? Only RPGs?

- are you focusing on your strengths? If you're wanting to score the next God of War title but all of your stuff sounds like chip tunes, is that the right fit for your talents, passions and gear? Or would a retro-style platformer work well? Likewise if you don't feel very strong at hip hop then is applying for an urban project that wants only hip hop music your best bet? Focus on your strengths.

- being the cheapest guy on the block hardly ever guarantees work - especially quality work. The more value you put in your work and yourself the more your clients will value you and your work too. The key is you have to be able to deliver.

Just some quick-n-dirty observations.

Good luck!

Nate

I should rephrase. I don't think us working for free is causing a problem. But I am wondering if the posts themselves, coming from audio guys, saying they'll work for free, is. Like I said, I'm not talking down to anyone who works for free, I totally understand projects with little to no budget (yet) and how rewarding they can be. But I am glad to hear people are getting gigs through the site. This is a great place.

I definitely feel it's inappropriate for the audio guys to work for free if the rest of the team is getting paid or trying the profit share (which hardly pays out BTW) or if the game has commercial aims. If the entire team is working just as a hobby and the game is going to be completely free and non-commercial in nature then it's more appropriate.

Furthermore don't let a client sway you into working for free just because they are - remember it's YOUR choice! If a charity project contacts me I can choose to work for free or choose to charge them, even if it's just a discounted rate. Too many times I've seen some projects try and "guilt" audio folks into working for free simply because everyone else is choosing to do so. In the end, as Majestic said, we're running a business. Make decisions that are good and smart for your business!

Nate

I couldn't agree more with you guys. That's just stupid and devastating to agree to do music for free for commercial project.
Also when I was fresh at gamedev scene I was bothered by guys making threads called like "Extremly Pro Composer" "PRO TURBO COMPOSER AAA" but now I find it just funny because 99% of them only have random low budged or even indie games and call themself AAA (trololol).

And as you are moderator, that would be nice if you could check Help Wanted section from time to time because almost no one is respecting bump/multiple threads rules