This keeps coming up, and for some reason reality seems to really rub some people the wrong way, but the truth is:

Programming is about the toughest possible path to game design.

Game engines are some of the most complex and sophisticated software applications in existence. The sheer number of different types of data they handle, coordinating the operation of different types of systems, which must work in concert to coordinate varied activities seamlessly, at the highest levels of performance, while providing the simplest, most flexible tools for content creation, etc., etc.

Learning how to program just isn't going to do the trick. You'll need quite a lot more than that. Being a good software engineer is difficult, even for people who have innate talent and love to program. It boggles the mind to think of someone with no interest in software engineering, saying to themselves, "I've got cool game ideas. Guess I'll go learn how to program."

If you don't love programming, for fandango's sake, leave it to someone who does. You'll be much more happy for it.

On 10/17/2011 at 10:34 AM, MilesRobson said:

I live in South Florida, so I can't...

It would seem that if your geographical location precludes you from one type of development position, it probably precludes you from others as well. If you can't move to where the job is, no sort of prep will help. So I'm not sure what the real hang-up is here.

On 10/17/2011 at 10:34 AM, MilesRobson said:

...I can't climb the QA chain to a higher position...

While using a testing position as a stepping stone is not nearly as far fetched as trying to become an engineer for the sake of getting into design, it doesn't exactly make a ton of sense either. Don't get me wrong. Actually working in the industry will almost certainly provide more industry opportunities than not. But that aside, QA is not exactly a career path to design.

The entry level design position is usually "level designer". Granted it may be tough to get that spot, and you should probably pursue any other opportunities that may help you get there, but probably the best way to prepare for a level design position is to practice level design. As others have pointed out in this thread, you can get the tools to do exactly that with freely available engines and mod tools for existing games. In fact, the whole Defense of the Ancients genre was created by hobbyist design, performed with modding tools (as was team fortress, etc.).

Bottom line, if you want to be a game designer, then get into game design, not programming.

On 10/17/2011 at 10:12 AM, MilesRobson said:

You gotta know programming to get a job in game design.

As you point out this isn't true. Sure, any talent you have for programming will probably serve you well as a designer, but I don't think you'll see programming popping up in many job postings for designers.

On 10/17/2011 at 10:12 AM, MilesRobson said:

No you don't, you just need to be a creative leader.

Please disabuse yourself of this notion. Being a designer is about doing design work. And as a designer, the only people you would be leading are junior designers.

On 10/17/2011 at 10:12 AM, MilesRobson said:

if you magically gave me a development studio, I think I could lead it into a powerful and successful title.

Doooooood. I won't hold it against you for letting that thought pass through your head, but saying it out loud is going to make it really difficult for anyone to take you seriously.

How many people do you know who, having no professional experience in a field at all, having never even worked with other people doing the work, not really even knowing what the process is like, who the players are, or how to work with them, could realistically step into a position that has proven too difficult for the vast majority of people who have ever tried it, and just lead a bunch of people powerfully to success? You're begging for ridicule here. But more importantly, your thought is too far from reality to be of any use.

Man I think he missed my post about using tools like game maker etc. There you can learn to design games in principle without having to get your hands dirty with low-level code.

I think that might be the best idea for now, until one develops a taste for programming and coding for its own sake.

@[color=#1C2837][size=2]
VReality


I wanna clear up the two things you said.

[color="#1c2837"]A) When I said creative leader, I just meant being creative. It's a term my art appreciation teacher throws around for being an artist. You lead your own craft. I am sorry for making it sound like I could be some epic director. that isn't what I meant by that. This sounds kinda funny given part....
[color="#1c2837"]B) What I meant by the "gave me a development studio" comment was, I'm not here because I like games.
[color="#1c2837"]I'm here because I want to make fun for other people. If given the chance to be in that environment, with proper talent, I think, someday, I could be a valuable person. Maybe. And you could say that pigs will someday fly. But I didn't mean that as direct as it seems, I shouldn't have written like that, and, again, whoopsies. My mind is in an odd stage where I am half indie, and half professional development studio. I'm in indie because that's all I can currently do at this stage, in my region (the only studio near me is DarkSide Games, I've asked for any sort of internship, tour, free labor position, anything for experience, got no reply).
[color="#1c2837"]

[color="#1c2837"]The most experience I have is with a couple of chaps, directing and designing a game that will one day finish, and hopefully, be fun to play.
[color="#1c2837"]Then I'm gonna do it again, with a different title, and hopefully know something along the way in terms of programming to aid.
[color="#1c2837"]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]"Bottom line, if you want to be a game designer, then get into game design, not programming. " People have said this a lot. I nod my head, agree, and try. And them I told that this isn't realistic. Yes, I've read Tom's piece, and plenty of other works that seem to argue with each other on whether or not a designer needs to code. It seems so 50/50 that sometimes. Do I want to program? Eh, it seems cool, I haven't hit a moment where I've loved it, but I certainly feel really cool when I solve something.


Do I think I have some secret unbridled passion for programming? I doubt it. While I love math, I think that logic kinda fails. I love playing guitar, but I don't want to become a professional guitarist.


To me, it seems like this. If I loved movies, and wanted to make my own movies, simply put, I buy a camera, and shoot.

Done.

With video games, it seems like I have to build the camera, and then shoot. I can't just pick up the tools and craft. The tools were designed to make software, not just games.
I've looked at Visual Scripters like PlayMaker (http://hutonggames.com/playmaker.html), but then I hear this hoopla that it is "cheating".
Maybe that's a route I should take.

There is no "cheating" involved.

If that were the mentality, people would still be programming using assembly language or even machine language (0s and 1s)

Tools to make it easier were created for a purpose. To free you from the tasks that are considered routine and to free up your creativity. A long time ago when I thought along similar lines as yours, I discovered GameMaker and even managed to create a fairly decent sidescroller.

So there is no doubt in my mind. Stop breaking your head about programming if that's not really your interest area.

To me, it seems like this. If I loved movies, and wanted to make my own movies, simply put, I buy a camera, and shoot.[/quote]
Not quite. What about the "incidental" things, like getting a script, writing the screenplay, getting suitable actors for the parts, rehearsals, planning shoots, locations, actual shooting, camera work (panorama, closeups etc), lighting, props, putting together edits, sound editing, music work, post-production and so on? With a video camera you just shoot a video, not a full movie. To get a full movie, you need multiple skills. In some ways it's tougher than game programming because of the sheer range of skills required and no one man can do it all.

I'm sorry that you aren't enjoying programming. Perhaps it's just not for you, but I prefer to believe that you're merely approaching it the wrong way...

A lot of people seem to take the path into programming in order to reach game design - it seems like a logical choice at the time, I suppose. I did the same. In reality, programming and game design are two different things and I think people misunderstand "game design" from that perspective.

Having said that, however: being able to program is in a great sense very liberating. I feel that programming is what grounds game development - it is the technical side of things, and unfortunately it is also very difficult. I'm a programmer by profession and I really have to say that developing a game engine as a project was more challenging than anything I have done in the corporate world. But I enjoyed the hell out of it, and it is incredibly rewarding.

I have always enjoyed art and kick myself every day for not pursuing it more in the past - I gave up on it in high school and resumed it again in my final year (because of a hot girl in that class, no less!!). It is a hobby for me now but I have to admit I still struggle with it. When I draw or paint, I find myself being extremely self-critical and demotivating myself - but whenever I complete something, the satisfaction is immense. And yet, I can't shake my ridiculous mindset of shooting myself down due to small failures - I almost have to force myself through those times. For me, I need both art and programming (something creative and artistic) in my life. I become frustrated if I am only able to exercise one of those.

That is my experience with art, but it's not too different with programming. The learning curve (as it with with ANYTHING worth learning) never seems to end... the first few months of years are merely the tip of the iceberg. And then after you "master" the syntax and finally code begins to flow, life throws a spanner in your face as you realise that your code is ugly, inefficient, and sometimes that your understandings are downright incorrect. Rinse and repeat.

Never do something that makes you unhappy - BUT - be sure that you make the right choice for the right reasons. Because I get the impression that you are impatient, and so, I must say this: give it a proper chance and see how you feel about it then. Don't expect a "quick fix", but keep in mind that the things you find more challenging are also the most satisfying to conquer. This is both the horror and the joy of creating.

I wish you luck!

To me, it seems like this. If I loved movies, and wanted to make my own movies, simply put, I buy a camera, and shoot.

Done.

With video games, it seems like I have to build the camera, and then shoot. I can't just pick up the tools and craft. The tools were designed to make software, not just games.
I've looked at Visual Scripters like PlayMaker (http://hutonggames.com/playmaker.html), but then I hear this hoopla that it is "cheating".
Maybe that's a route I should take.

Well there's an interesting question - how does one become a director in the games industry? My guess is that you can't simply walk into that position, you'll have to work your way up somehow. No, you don't have to build a camera, but neither do you have to build a computer - these are the off the shelf hardware components that each industry has. But with games, there is no single off the shelf thing that can be used to make every game.

You can of course use tools to help you - IDEs, game engines. Making a game with a ready made game engine still requires some technical work (e.g., scripting), but directing a movie surely requires a lot of technical work too.

The people who don't touch technical work would be more like writers - but I'm guessing from your posts that you want something more technical and involved than simply being a writer?

My suggestion would be to try to look at higher level engines, rather than attemtping to write with C++ and low level APIs (though I'm not in a position to say how is the best way to get a job in game design).

To me, it sounds like you are well on your way.

You have some friends who are interesting in making games with you, and have started making one.
That about the most important step you can take.

Then focus on making the game, stay passionate, and learn whatever you feel you have to on the way.
If its designing games you want to do, then you should design games, because thats the only way to learn.

Having understanding of programming will help you come up with feasible ideas, and being able to communicate them to programmers.
Some experience using tools like Unity will help you make prototypes of your ideas, to more easily show others what you mean, then any text document can.

I think the main reason people keep saying you need programming skills to be a designer, is that it is a lot easier to show your ideas actually work if you can implement a prototype yourself. But programming isn't a prerequisite as a game designer, only a useful skill.

If you want to get a job as a game designer at a big studio, you will have to prove your work.
Most couldn't care less for any degrees, courses, books or what tutorials you have read, all they are interested in is seeing your prior work.
It might be in the form of a cardboard cutout prototype, but if it shows the concept and is fun to play with, you have a good case

So start build your portfolio, and hey, if you are really good, and a bit lucky, maybe you (as in you and your friends) can get a hit on for example the App Store, and have the cash to found your own studio. You wouldn't be the first. I work at a studio that started like that.

I mean, this is gonna make me sound silly, but I only want to program TO make my own design prototypes.
I don't want to program. I want to program to aid my design.

I'd say start with something high level.
If you choose C++, use some game engine, which isn't super important, most will teach you the basic parts of a game and how they interact.
High level concepts will carry over.
Choose one that many use, and preferably have an active community, use examples and ask questions to get something up and running quickly.
Then use that as a sandbox for your designs.

The tricky part is that programming is a craft too, its nothing you just learn, and then can do, you are never fully learned in this huge field.
Only way to get better at it is doing it, just as with game design.

I think they key to keep passionate is to spend as much time as possible doing the things that interest you, don't get lost in the details and low level, keep focused on trying to implement your high level game concept prototypes.

And keep it simple

Thank you for all of the advice