Since there's no use in trying to use logic to talk about a crazy person's hallucinations, the whole issue is moot.

Since there's no use in trying to use logic to talk about a crazy person's hallucinations, the whole issue is moot.

this is a productive and non-inflammatory statement...

this is a productive and non-inflammatory statement...

It was asked what everyone thought about the book of Revelations, and I gave my honest answer as a non-Christian. If only Christians were to answer then that should have been specified. I could have gone into how it, along with the rest of the books in the bible, are harmful to society, but I decided to simply talk about the effect it has on my personal day to day life -- that is, none.

If you were in a coffee shop, and a man with obvious hysterical delusions was babbling about some kind of magical invisible men, and someone asked you: "What do you think about the subject matter this person is talking about and its consequences?" you'd probably say, "Well, it doesn't matter much to me, because it's just a crazy person talking about his hallucinations."

[quote name='mikeman' timestamp='1311017082' post='4836974']
To any religious person: If tomorrow God appeared to you and ordered you to sucrifice your children, would you do it? Or would you say "what you are commanding me to do is evil, so you are evil, therefore you are not my God, the omnibelovelent Creator. Not all spirits than can talk to humans are God". We know what Abraham did...

Since God cannot commit an evil act the whole issue is moot.
[/quote]

And why God should accept our definition of "evil"?

God in the OT instructs Abraham to sucrifice his child, doesn't he? Also the Israelites to attack other tribes, or parents to stone their chilrdren if they disobey them.(Yet the same God, incarnated, stops a stoning from happening in the NT).

Are you saying there is a definition of "good" besides "God says so"? What if God resarrures you that killing a person he will tell you is a good act, even if you don;t understand it, because 'my ways are higher than your ways'?

If you were in a coffee shop, and a man with obvious hysterical delusions was babbling about some kind of magical invisible men, and someone asked you: "What do you think about the subject matter this person is talking about and its consequences?" you'd probably say, "Well, it doesn't matter much to me, because it's just a crazy person talking about his hallucinations."
[/quote]

Were those man's babblings accepted as truth by nearly 2 billion people on this planet?

It was asked what everyone thought about the book of Revelations, and I gave my honest answer as a non-Christian.

It's pretty simple to answer in a non-inflammatory/non-demeaning way regardless of your feelings on the subject.

If you were in a coffee shop, and a man with obvious hysterical delusions was babbling about some kind of magical invisible men, and someone asked you: "What do you think about the subject matter this person is talking about and its consequences?" you'd probably say, "Well, it doesn't matter much to me, because it's just a crazy person talking about his hallucinations."

Were those man's babblings accepted as truth by nearly 2 billion people on this planet?
[/quote]
The answer would be the same, whether they were or weren't. There was a time when that man's babblings didn't exist, and another man's babblings were accepted as truth by billions. In another location a different man's babblings were accepted. There were babbles about the world being flat, about witches being prominent, about people being reborn, about the sun revolving around the earth, about virgin births and angels and flying horses and rainbow bridges and evil intergalactic emperors and all sorts of things. The fact that people have a tendency to get together and all start babbling about things can't be taken as reason to heed the babble, since they're always babbling about different things depending on when and where they live.

The only thing that's consistent is through time and space is those of us who don't babble, and one day I think none of us will babble and we'll look back and be somewhat embarrassed, as we are somewhat embarrassed about so many things in our history. That will be the real Revelation.

[quote name='_moagstar_' timestamp='1311013683' post='4836932']
[quote name='Machaira' timestamp='1311002021' post='4836835']
So what would be sufficient evidence and why should God use your definition of "sufficient"?

Technically god has already provided evidence, see the bible for details.
Whether or not god would deem this evidence as sufficient is irrelevant. For many people this evidence is not sufficient, and by many we're talking about the vast majority of the human race, which is a far cry from:[/quote]
[font="arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif"][color="#333333"]And yet they probably accept all the historical events that have the same amount of proof, or even less. A bit hypocritical IMO, but whatever.
[/font][/quote]

To answer these one by one:
Sufficient evidence? Well, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Even if Jesus appeared to descend from the sky, I'd be sceptical that it wasn't simply some advanced but natural technology. But for the sake of argument, let's say a message of non-terrestrial origin that correlated with what we know about god that provided information previously unknown to the human race. Basically, it's not that there's tonnes of evidence I dismiss, it's simply that there's no evidence to support the concept of a supernatural intelligence. Almost everything we know of can be explained without god and the stuff we can't? Well, every time we understand something, it turns out to have a natural rational explanation. Funny that.

Bible as evidence? The bible is true because it says it is. I don't even need to answer that.

Accepting historical events? Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The corollary to that is that I am willing to accept things I know to be possible with less proof. If you tell me you went to the shop, it's plausible. The holocaust has living witnesses. Further back there is documented evidence. Is it possible that <insert historical event here> never happened and some vast conspiracy? Sure, but it seems kinda unlikely. There is nothing in history that contradicts my experience of the world. Wars, famine, politics, all these things have happened in my lifetime, and I see no reason to doubt they happened in the past. OTOH, I know of no-one on earth who has seen the red sea part, or water turned into wine by any means other than fermenting grapes. It's far more likely that a few natural but unusual events (an unusually low tide perhaps) were exaggerated into the bible stories we know today.

[quote name='mikeman' timestamp='1311017082' post='4836974']
To any religious person: If tomorrow God appeared to you and ordered you to sucrifice your children, would you do it? Or would you say "what you are commanding me to do is evil, so you are evil, therefore you are not my God, the omnibelovelent Creator. Not all spirits than can talk to humans are God". We know what Abraham did...

Since God cannot commit an evil act the whole issue is moot.
[/quote]
*sigh* We've had this argument before. Yahweh commits any number of acts that are despicable in the extreme, Isaac and Lot stories off the top off my head. You're suffering from such an inferiority complex that you think that whatever god does, you're not fit to judge it. It sounds like stockholm syndrome to me.

If I did find out tomorrow that yahweh was real, I'd hate him. Richard Morgan sums it up for me

Even if you could convince ..., against all the evidence, that there really was a god? He’d just see him as a threat to be eliminated. If god were demonstrably real? Guys like me would just be looking for ways to find him and burn him down.[/quote]

[quote name='_moagstar_' timestamp='1311013683' post='4836932']
[quote name='Machaira' timestamp='1311002021' post='4836835']
So what would be sufficient evidence and why should God use your definition of "sufficient"?

Technically god has already provided evidence, see the bible for details.
Whether or not god would deem this evidence as sufficient is irrelevant. For many people this evidence is not sufficient, and by many we're talking about the vast majority of the human race, which is a far cry from:[/quote]
[font="arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif"][color="#333333"]And yet they probably accept all the historical events that have the same amount of proof, or even less. A bit hypocritical IMO, but whatever.
[/font][/quote]

To answer these one by one:
Sufficient evidence? Well, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Even if Jesus appeared to descend from the sky, I'd be sceptical that it wasn't simply some advanced but natural technology. But for the sake of argument, let's say a message of non-terrestrial origin that correlated with what we know about god that provided information previously unknown to the human race. Basically, it's not that there's tonnes of evidence I dismiss, it's simply that there's no evidence to support the concept of a supernatural intelligence. Almost everything we know of can be explained without god and the stuff we can't? Well, every time we understand something, it turns out to have a natural rational explanation. Funny that.

Bible as evidence? The bible is true because it says it is. I don't even need to answer that.

Accepting historical events? Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The corollary to that is that I am willing to accept things I know to be possible with less proof. If you tell me you went to the shop, it's plausible. The holocaust has living witnesses. Further back there is documented evidence. Is it possible that <insert historical event here> never happened and some vast conspiracy? Sure, but it seems kinda unlikely. There is nothing in history that contradicts my experience of the world. Wars, famine, politics, all these things have happened in my lifetime, and I see no reason to doubt they happened in the past. OTOH, I know of no-one on earth who has seen the red sea part, or water turned into wine by any means other than fermenting grapes. It's far more likely that a few natural but unusual events (an unusually low tide perhaps) were exaggerated into the bible stories we know today.

[quote name='mikeman' timestamp='1311017082' post='4836974']
To any religious person: If tomorrow God appeared to you and ordered you to sucrifice your children, would you do it? Or would you say "what you are commanding me to do is evil, so you are evil, therefore you are not my God, the omnibelovelent Creator. Not all spirits than can talk to humans are God". We know what Abraham did...

Since God cannot commit an evil act the whole issue is moot.
[/quote]
*sigh* We've had this argument before. Yahweh commits any number of acts that are despicable in the extreme, Isaac and Lot stories off the top off my head. You're suffering from such an inferiority complex that you think that whatever god does, you're not fit to judge it. It sounds like stockholm syndrome to me.

If I did find out tomorrow that yahweh was real, I'd hate him. Richard Morgan sums it up for me

Even if you could convince ..., against all the evidence, that there really was a god? He’d just see him as a threat to be eliminated. If god were demonstrably real? Guys like me would just be looking for ways to find him and burn him down.[/quote]

[font="arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif"][color="#333333"]And yet they probably accept all the historical events that have the same amount of proof, or even less. A bit hypocritical IMO, but whatever.
[/font]

I have a friend who can fly.
I have a friend who can drive.

Which of these statements requires the greater weight of evidence to convince someone of it's truth?

God does want everyone to accept the gift of salvation, but a gift cannot be forced onto people.

He just doesn't want it bad enough for the majority of the human race. Since there are some pretty simple things he could do which would prove his existence to non-believers.

I really don't understand why this topic has been posted in gamedev ....
What's the relationship between game developpement and the 'Revelation' ?

We don't care about God stuff here, at least I hope !