No. This massacre is explicitly ordered by this "all-loving" god,

I already answered this...the Israelites would, inevitably, battle some tribes. That's how things would go down anyway. That was the world then. For God to come down with a message of a united humanity, through love, would be unheard of at that time. To give you an example, at about those times my predecessor came down and slaughtered the pre-Hellenes, occupying their ground. And they had religion, a polytheistic one, only no universal laws as "you shall not kill", not ever for their kin. Just offer the required sucrifices, do not commit hubris, and...yeah, that's it. God protected Israelites so, one day, the message and the Laws would be spread to humanity, just as they did.

We have to see things in their temporal framework. Jesus came with that message of universal and unlimited love ~1000 years later, still most didn't accept it, and 2,000 years later, now, still most don't accept it, not really. Israelites weren't ready for it, nobody on Earth at that time was, and they were a tribe struggling for survival for decades in the desert, with other nations on their back. They would go to war, and they did. Between then and now, we have Jesus that shed a new light to all this.

You know, let's turn this a bit on its head. Let's say you have all compelling evidence against the existence of God, or that my God is a sociopathic murderer. Congratulations, what have you achieved? Now I'm back into believing that life and existence is as chaotic and random as ever. So? What's changed? I myself are all for science, and think Creationists, for example, have lost the battle before it began(I'm not so sure why people like Dawkins still continue the battle, doesn't he have actual students to teach about actual science and not disproving symbolic images?). I do believe in the Big Bang and evolution, although to be honest in reality I shouldn't give a rat's ass about all that, since they don't affect my everyday life at all, nor do they teach me how to be a better person.

Great, so I believed in a good Creator that gave birth to the Universe and who is trying to teach the human race how to be good by entering history Himself, and you demolished that "myth". So what? You really think wars will stop, bankers will stop being greedy, people will stop murdering each other or telling lies? Does all that happen because some people believe in a God that explictly commanded not to do those things? You focus too much on the bad things that religion causes, probably because of your experiences you shared, that you don't look at the good ones. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not lie. Love your neighbour as yourself. How can all this be "bad"?

The same way Creationists are fighting a lost battle, you on the "other side" are fighting again a lost battle. Religion doesn't seem to want to go away. It probably never will. I keep hearing arguments against an even liberal interpretation of the Bible, as in "this proves that the Bible is not God's word if it gets reinterpreted every 100 years". Why the fuck do atheists even care about that? This is crazy. You are offered a solution that is half-way there, and some go "no, we should abolish religion alltogether". I'm sorry, but that makes no god damn sense. People will not quit their faiths because Dawkins "disagrees". Dawkins in an expert on biology, not in life in general, life is more than the sum of its parts. Those people need to learn to compromise. A future with atheists and non-bigot religious people co-existing is not a bad future at all.

And lastly, atheists are not ignorant-safe, you know. I watched one Dawkins interview where he said that the "gap" that would be left with religion gone, could be filled with "philosophy and science". Yeah, Richard, could I interest you to some Plato or Newton or Leibniz? Or would it be Dawkins-approved literal works only?

Things aren't black and white, not from our perspective anyway.

Have we defined what God is capable and uncapable of doing? As well as what God is willing or unwiling to do? Any non-believer would simply ask, "Why didn't God just cause a natural catastrophe or [insert any divine intervention here] to stop the Midianites? I mean it's God. Can't He just snap His fingers and make things and people stop?" There's a nuance and understanding to what God does and why He does it. I, of course, am not going to arrogant or dumb enough fully understand or able to explain what all those things are.

I am willing to accept a scientific theory that is supported by overwhelming evidence. Are you?

Depends on the theory and the "overwhelming evidence".

a. You are the who has repeatedly dodged my questions. If you have so much proof, please post some. The ball's in your court.
b. How would the existence of jesus prove the validity of the bible and the existence of god? You are trying to build a strawman but I'll indulge you anyway: historical documents from independent authors that verify his existence.

(Note: I don't doubt his existence. I deny the ridiculous claims of christians).

I'm not going to bother presenting evidence that you'll just dismiss out of hand, which is why I asked what I did. That's besides the fact that there are entire books on the evidence of the validity of the Bible, which, as I already said, cannot be presented appropriately here.

If you don't doubt his existence, what was he?

[quote name='Fiddler' timestamp='1298135162' post='4776349']
I am willing to accept a scientific theory that is supported by overwhelming evidence. Are you?

Depends on the theory and the "overwhelming evidence". [/quote]

So if you don't like some theory you'll just dismiss it, even if it *does* have overwhelming evidence?

a. You are the who has repeatedly dodged my questions. If you have so much proof, please post some. The ball's in your court.
b. How would the existence of jesus prove the validity of the bible and the existence of god? You are trying to build a strawman but I'll indulge you anyway: historical documents from independent authors that verify his existence.

(Note: I don't doubt his existence. I deny the ridiculous claims of christians).

I'm not going to bother presenting evidence that you'll just dismiss out of hand, which is why I asked what I did. That's besides the fact that there are entire books on the evidence of the validity of the Bible, which, as I already said, cannot be presented appropriately here.[/quote]

Huge cop out.


I assure you I won't dismiss evidence out of hand, as long as you don't insult my and your intelligence by presenting logical fallacies as "evidence" (the bible is true because it says so; god exists because he said it).

If you don't doubt his existence, what was he?[/quote]

You really have to ask that? A human born of a human mother and father, just like the rest of us.

There's a nuance and understanding to what God does and why He does it. I, of course, am not going to arrogant or dumb enough fully understand or able to explain what all those things are.[/quote]

What's the point of being created in god's image and given intelligence and free will, if you won't use those very attributes to understand god? This is not arrogance and this is certainly not dumbness; throwing these gifts away is what is dumb.

So if you don't like some theory you'll just dismiss it, even if it *does* have overwhelming evidence?

Of course not. It has nothing to do with my liking it or not. As I said "overwhelming" is subjective. I think there's overwhelming evidence of the Bible being what it says it is. See how that works.

Huge cop out.


I assure you I won't dismiss evidence out of hand, as long as you don't insult my and your intelligence by presenting logical fallacies as "evidence" (the bible is true because it says so; god exists because he said it).

Why not just go read Evidence That Demands a Verdict and get back to me?

You really have to ask that? A human born of a human mother and father, just like the rest of us.

And why do you believe he existed in the first place? Why would the apostles allow themselves to be martyred if he were just a man?

Why would the apostles allow themselves to be martyred if he were just a man?

Because people are retarded.

There's a nuance and understanding to what God does and why He does it. I, of course, am not going to arrogant or dumb enough fully understand or able to explain what all those things are.

What's the point of being created in god's image and given intelligence and free will, if you won't use those very attributes to understand god? This is not arrogance and this is certainly not dumbness; throwing these gifts away is what is dumb.
[/quote]
Trying to understand and saying you know everything are two different things. Maybe I should have bolded "all".

And why do you believe he existed in the first place?[/quote]

Because two people had (premarital!) sex, voluntary or otherwise.

Why would the apostles allow themselves to be martyred if he were just a man?[/quote]

If martyrdom defines divinity then Joseph Stalin is a million times holier than Jesus.

Why not just go read Evidence That Demands a Verdict and get back to me?[/quote]

I'll do that, thanks. Why don't you cite a few interesting tidbits until then?

If anybody cares, the results of the survey have now gone up on my blog: http://www.oldtestamentadventures.com/2011/03/12/what-game-developers-think-about-the-bible/