"Men know nothing until they have children. They still know nothing after that, but at least they realise it."
Dylan Moran

I've recently become step-father to a 2 and 4 year old, so got thrown straight in the deep end.

Up until now, I always thought of myself as an inhumanly patient, calm and controlled person and am ashamed to admit I made a lot of judgements of how other people raised their kids and had lots of wonderful, theoretical ideas of how I would do it better.

All I can say is MOTHER OF THE SWEET UNICYCLE RIDING JESUS I couldn't have had less of a clue if I'd systematically tried.

Anyone who thinks they can comment on this without direct experience has some major shocks coming in the future.

My parents were overprotective in some ways, and fairly normal in others. I was the first child, so they were noob parents. Add to that a mild case of ADHD and you have a recipe for disaster.

I wasn't allowed to watch films with a rating above PG even when I was older than the respective rating. As a result, I haven't watched a whole slew of films which all my peers have, causing awkwardness in conversation at times. I wasn't allowed anything dangerous, never having a slingshot or any kind of blade "You'll just use it to break things". I made myself an electric screwdriver out of Meccano but that got confiscated. I did have a chemistry set, but my parents made the rule that I couldnt do anything unattended, so in all I didn't get many hours of chemistry set usage before all the chemicals absorbed moisture from the atmosphere and we had to throw it all away.

This over-protectiveness didn't help. When I was with my friends from school we would make fires, and blow things up with homemade explosives. Nitrating every kind of organic material we could think of was irresistably fun. We discovered a "dirty bomb" by mistake. We also made our own hand soap by saponifying butter. Often times these things nearly went badly wrong, including when we tried to make nitrocellulose, but the acid burned a hole through somebodies shoe. We poured our alkalai on the shoe to neutralise the acid and its a miracle nobody got hurt.

On the upside, I was allowed to climb trees, which did wonders to improve my hand to eye coordination; although the local government later pollarded said trees to stop children from climbing them, falling out, and then making a no win no fee claim. I walked to school every day, about 2.5 miles, which was great exercise; we messed around on the way home, got into fights, and occasionally broke things.

Credentials: Father of a 7-month old girl.

Everything I could say can be summed up as such:

1) There's good parenting and bad parenting. Guess which gets more attention. There are a lot of people that probably shouldn't have had kids, it's not for everyone.

2) Nothing anyone tells you will prepare you for actually being a parent. It is harder, and crazier, and more amazing than anyone can adequately describe, but once you're on the other side (if you make that jump) it'll completely change your outlook. On life, on children, on parenting, on yourself, your own parents, on sleep (precious sleep), on the definition of "a busy schedule"...everything.

Quote: Original post by Tachikoma
Logical fallacy. ;) Since when are parents authoritative on this subject? If all parents had a clue, a thread like this would not exist in the first place. Just sayin. I could get into all sorts of semantics, but what if you are constantly surrounded by kids, and sometimes shared the responsibility looking after them, even if they are not yours?

Raising kids is not a prerequisite for possessing the ability of making correct observations and assertions. I dare say, external observations made by a non-parent is probably more objective than observations done within a family. Parents have the tendency to be protective of their offspring, no matter what, so there is a potential for bias right there.

He didn't say that parents were authorities on the subject (though I'd think they are) or that all parents have a clue. He said that anyone who has not had children, or had to care for children over an extended period of time (full time nanny, etc) is not an authority on the subject.

I went to daycare 5 days a week as a child, and I can tell you that my parents had to deal with problems with me that the daycare never did despite the daycare watching me for 15+ hours a week depending on the season.

It's not "batshit insane", just good old-fashioned self-hatred.

1. Parents have a complete lack of respect for everyone else around them.
You've slept 4 hours a night for the past 2 years while your husband is screwing your former best friend. Plus, you gave up a good career for this. I think this one should be self-explanatory.

2. Parents give their kids whatever they point at.
Take the above scenario and throw in a needy child. See, not so hard to understand. Intolerable, yes, but not hard to understand.

3. Parents treat their kids as though they were made of glass.
I actually blame a lot of this on the inundation of alarmism in American media. However, parents that are failing in every other respect will usually become over-protective to make up for it.

4. Parents back their kids up for just about anything.
Last, and certainly the most reviled parental behavior, the my-brat-can-do-no-wrong attitude. I'm sorry, but you don't have to have kids and "know" what it's like to call these types assholes. An asshole is an asshole and these are the worst because their adding more assholes into the world. I don't blame the children for their behavior either. I say nothing to the child and immediately resort to violence with the parent. It's okay, they don't have a backbone. The look in your eyes is usually enough. These are the ones that must cling to the idea that their children are "perfect" because they've literally f&*ked up on everything else.

I'm only 8 weeks into my first child, enough to still be reeling from the changes but maybe not enough to judge too harshly. Like the OP, I was horrified by the idea of having children until I met my wife two years ago. I just knew she was the person I wanted to have children with. There's no doubt that we'll always be faithful and have mutual respect for each other, however, I can not see how people who have children without this don't throw themselves or their "significant other" off a bridge. These parents have every right to be miserable but it's still no excuse for behaving the way they do.

I was living in Park Slope, Brooklyn until a few months ago. There's a huge concentration of yuppy parents there and I've had to deal with this sort of thing quite often.

whilst Valderman was generalizing a bit his basic premise is correct.
Ive choosen not to have kids

The fact is ~99% (vast majority) of the people born into this world dont contribute anything useful, in fact are they are destructive eg consumption of resources/overpopulation/pollution etc.

Whilst you can think hell my kid/s are gonna be in that 1% that do something useful.

Logically thinking the odds are theyre not!

Quote: Original post by Valderman
I'm getting closer and closer to the age where having kids is the appropriate, respectable thing to do (even though the very idea still horrifies me,) which has caused me to observe parents and their kids a lot lately, and my observations leave me wondering: are most people completely insane from the get-go, or is that something you automatically acquire when becoming a parent? Regardless of which, I've observed the following.

Interesting discussion!

Quote: Original post by Valderman
1. Parents have a complete lack of respect for everyone else around them.
Is your kid shouting at the top of his lungs just for attention? Fuck that, you're on the phone/reading/texting! Is he running up and down the aisle at the mall screaming and kicking people? How cute, he's expressing himself! Is he walking up to people on the bus just to scream in their ear because he's unhappy with his seat and wants theirs? Why, of course the kid should have whatever seat he wishes; anyone already sitting there only have themselves to blame! Going to a fancy restaurant? Let's bring the infant along, I'm sure everyone will love having dinner at 130 decibels!

I don't have kids but I've spent alot of time around them. I used to teach music and choir to K-6 graders and the biggest thing I found is they want structure and consistency. Set the rules, enforce them and stay constant with them. Of course this doesn't always work in of itself. Sometimes kids are just going to be disruptive. I saw a mother with a 3-4 year old boy who was just having a complete meltdown tantrum. She finally just grabbed her son and walked him out of the car and went home. I'm sure the folks around her were relieved to see her go but at the same time what did this teach the kid? Throw a big enough fit long enough and I get to go home (which was his whole goal anyway).

Quote: Original post by Valderman
2. Parents give their kids whatever they point at.
God forbid you actually teach your kid to eat healthy or that you don't always get what you want; that'd require actual work!

Thank God for my parents! My dad used to say "this isn't a restaurant!" when I'd complain about what's for dinner. Sure whipped me into shape. I think some parents just get too lazy or tired. Just being around the kiddos (students) I had for 40-50 hours per week made me exhausted and there were times that I'd give in. I can't imagine having to LIVE with them too! :P

Quote: Original post by Valderman
3. Parents treat their kids as though they were made of glass.
This problem seems especially prevalent in the US (see comments to this for example) but happens everywhere that I've seen. Going to the park is dangerous! Climbing trees can kill you! Walking to school alone carries a 210% risk of getting abducted and raped to hell and back again! The internets are full of evil things, we have to make sure you don't accidentally glimpse them! Don't talk to strangers, that's even worse than walking to school! (This one has actually caused kids lost in the woods to hide from search parties, though I can't find a link to the story ATM.) As if most accidents didn't happen within the home, most abductions weren't committed by relatives and most cases of molestation didn't involve family members or close friends.

Now here I think you're being a little extreme. There's a difference between treating your kid as if they're made of glass and taking precautions. Do you lock the doors to your home? Do you lock the doors to your car? Why? Because you want to protect them. Does this mean a thief is constantly lurking waiting for their moment to strike? No but it also doesn't mean throwing caution to the wind. Especially with something as important and precious as your child. There are people that will kidnap a child. There are strangers that will harm children. So I feel this point of your argument is really weak. Climbing trees and such... I'm fine with! Go do it! But I'll be out with my kids, especially when they're young. Heck, I'll probably be climbing the trees WITH them! :)

Quote: Original post by Valderman
4. Parents back their kids up for just about anything.
Oh, your classmate's dad told you to stop bullying his son? Better call the police because the bastard had the audacity to talk to you!

Ran into this ALL OF THE TIME as a teacher. I'm sorry, your kid isn't perfect and he was throwing pencils in the ceiling and not on task. This is why I gave him a failing grade for today's participation and no I will not change the grade because you asked me to.

Quote: Original post by Valderman
Basically, everything I've seen indicates that having kids seriously impairs people's ability to think rationally and show respect for anyone outside the family. People who "think of the children" generally don't think at all, and this seems to apply tenfold to parents.

I disagree. Sure having kids definitely makes life more complicated and can distract someone but just having kids doesn't make an adult not care about others. I feel those parents that don't think rationally or show respect were simply people that didn't do either before having kids. I also think that people without kids could be more understanding too. We don't have to put up with the constant issues that parents do so if a parent is really trying to control their kid - I'd give them some extra slack. If it is a case of a parent just not caring or even trying - then I'd get more frustrated.

Quote: Original post by zedz
The fact is ~99% (vast majority) of the people born into this world dont contribute anything useful, in fact are they are destructive eg consumption of resources/overpopulation/pollution etc.

Wow. I bet you're glad that your parents didn't think the same about YOU. Talk about a negative outlook on LIFE! We should probably just stop breeding cats and dogs too as they basically don't contribute anything useful either. :P

Quote: Original post by coderx75
I'm only 8 weeks into my first child, enough to still be reeling from the changes but maybe not enough to judge too harshly. Like the OP, I was horrified by the idea of having children until I met my wife two years ago. I just knew she was the person I wanted to have children with.

Giving in to primal instincts ? [wink]

I'm a bit in a similar situation as the OP. Coming into an age where lots of my friends are getting married and having their first kid. Together with my girlfriend we have chosen not to have kids any time soon. I know we would absolutely not live up to the task. We really value personal freedom as a couple, and we both have very time consuming and demanding jobs where we travel a lot. That, and I'm still freaking immature sometimes - I could really not picture myself raising a kid when I still behave like one myself on more occasions than I would like to admit [grin]

So, back to friends with first kids. What I have noticed is that these people change. And I mean radically. It sometimes feels like getting a kid erases some parts of your personality, sucking you into an isolated little bubble, at least from the point of view of an external observer. I understand that getting a kid puts you into a situation of great responsibility and makes priorities shift. But still, from observing some of my friends, they have just become dull and boring, to be honest.

That's probably inevitable. But at the same time it's kind of sad. You remember all the cool, weird and fun things you did together with your friends in the past, especially with those you have known since your early childhood. Then you look at them, living in their little bubble with wife and kid(s), and you realize that you have lost them, forever.

Oh well, that's how life goes I guess :)