I don't think Valderman is being fascist, I think most of his points is just common sense. But I wouldn't paint every parent with same paintbrush though. I can totally sympathise with the frustration of enduring an over politically correct, over protective mentality in society.

I'm saying this, because I had an Eastern European upbringing. There is a big contrast in parenting attitudes between US-centric western culture and where I'm from.

If you stepped out of line, you got a caning. Not just at home, but also at school! For some people this may sound brutal, but it wasn't. You'd have to be really naughty to cop something like that. These days a simple disciplinary smack is considered child abuse. No wonder kids are becoming increasingly self obsessed little shits, and have no respect of their parents - pretty much a bunch of Eric Cartmans.

As for playground... lol..., well, at 5 we used to carry pocket knives in one pocket and a slingshot in the other. Played in the cemetery all summer, raided some poor bastard's cherry/plum/whatever tree in the neighbourhood near autumn. Took risky shortcuts through local gypsy settlements, taunting them, and then getting chased on the way back home.

Walked to school or took the public bus almost always. Often it was filled by drunk workers who just did a pit stop at the local tavern. The same on the way back too. Half the time I walked it, irrespective what the weather was. I preferred it that way because I could do all sorts of sneaky shit on the way home. But once I was at home, I was like an angel. :D

Good times.

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Original post by Valderman are most people completely insane from the get-go, or is that something you automatically acquire when becoming a parent?

Yes on both accounts. I'm not excusing bad parenting, but after actually having children, I can certainly see why people act the way they do more often.

For starters, at some point in your life, when you have children, they will have a temper tantrum in a public place. Giving in to this temper tantrum lands you in the arena of #2. Not giving in lands you in the arena of #1. Sure you can extricate yourself from the situation, but that still takes time, and sometimes it is not feasible (ie in an airplane). As a childless person, you look at these parents with contempt. After kids, you can have some compassion.

Specifically:

1. As a parent you have to pick your battles. When enforcing something, you have to be 100% consistent. Its much easier to let things go then be 100% strict. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but maybe you can see why people act like that. Similar to why people are fat. Everyone knows HOW to be in shape, but not everyone actually follows through with it. Parenting is the same way, everyone knows what they SHOULD be doing, but if your not already doing it, changing can be difficult.

2. This is the opposite response to #1. Rather than having a confrontation, you can delay it by giving in. Most parents do it out of goodness, not realizing that in the long run it is hurting both them and the child. However, you have to understand that sometimes (like almost every day between the ages of 2 and 3), your so fatigued with the testing that you don't have the patience to make a battle about everything.

A recent example for me would be last night. After 8pm my daughter gets extremely cranky. We got back a little after 8 because we were trick-or-treating. She was starting to get testy and she wanted a piece of candy. I did the math in my head, if I say no, I have to deal with a 20 or 30 minute tantrum to get her in bed. Or I can give her some smarties and put her to bed in 5 minutes. I chose the latter.

3. I think this is more women than parents in general. I don't mind if my kids do somewhat dangerous things (like climb things or hang from stuff). I think its good for kids to explore and get hurt and find their limits and overcome fears. My wife, mom, and mother in law, will have nothing of it. I would say the same is true with all of our friends with children.

4. I think this is more a product of our culture than bad parenting. In the old days, you taught kids to defend themselves. If they had a problem, they settled it themselves. Now, that can land you in jail and your kids expelled. This will be one of the hardest things to teach my son growing up. I don't want him to be a bully, I don't want him to be one of those kids who fights about everything. But I don't want him to not stick up for himself either. It's a fine line and will be a hard thing to teach in this day and age of lawsuits.

To conclude, parenting is hard work. Really hard. A good parent has to be 100% consistent at all times, extremely patient, and extremely forgiving. To make it worse, all of us come into parenting with our own ideas and thoughts on how it should be done, and little experience. I think the default response is to parent how you were parented, and of course, all of us have diverse experiences with our parents. I can 100% guarantee that things you think now about how you will raise your kids, will change drastically once you have them. Being idealistic is a luxury you don't have once you have a person running around that makes its own decisions.

[Edited by - ChurchSkiz on November 1, 2010 4:46:21 PM]

Total agreement with ChurchSkiz, great points all of them...Only thing I will add is my daughter is a few weeks shy of turning thirteen, and parenting issues were much simpler when she was three. This isn't to say she is a bad kid, no far from it. Just that once you get past those early formative years things start to get complicated.

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Original post by Tachikoma in my day, blah blah blah

You know, I really am tired of hearing this bullshit argument. The same people who enjoyed such freedoms as kids and knew to respect their elders, etc. are the very same people who are raising this generation that's supposedly wrapped in cotton wool, is self-entitled, etc.

And for the record, I'm 33.

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No wonder kids are becoming increasingly self obsessed little shits, and have no respect of their parents - pretty much a bunch of Eric Cartmans. ...at 5 we used to carry pocket knives in one pocket and a slingshot in the other. Played in the cemetery all summer, raided some poor bastard's cherry/plum/whatever tree in the neighbourhood near autumn. Took risky shortcuts through local gypsy settlements, taunting them, and then getting chased on the way back home.

Read what you just wrote, and then go read this.

My brother (and his wife I might add) used to pretty much agree with Valderman. Now he's got two kids, and it's a different story. They can be adorable, but they can be capricious and attention-seeking to the extreme. They are clever little buggers, masters (oddly) at psychological warfare, and will go to great lengths to get what they want, even self harm!

It's hard to get tough with little kids tbh, and exhausting. And sometimes you just don't know if they're being capricious or have a real situation. Sometimes it's so obvious it's comical. Crocodile tears and all that.

I think a bit of discipline goes a long way. They are not always precious little angels you may think, and can be quite destructive unwittingly. My brother is a lot more stressed and tensed, and now I know why now, having spend a just a few days with my two nieces!

Should I ever end up having kids, assuming hell doesn't freeze over first, I'm looking into some kind of Subdermal shock based training tool for the kids.

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Original post by ChurchSkiz Quote: Original post by Valderman are most people completely insane from the get-go, or is that something you automatically acquire when becoming a parent? Yes on both accounts. I'm not excusing bad parenting, but after actually having children, I can certainly see why people act the way they do more often. For starters, at some point in your life, when you have children, they will have a temper tantrum in a public place. Giving in to this temper tantrum lands you in the arena of #2. Not giving in lands you in the arena of #1. Sure you can extricate yourself from the situation, but that still takes time, and sometimes it is not feasible (ie in an airplane). As a childless person, you look at these parents with contempt. After kids, you can have some compassion. Specifically: 1. As a parent you have to pick your battles. When enforcing something, you have to be 100% consistent. Its much easier to let things go then be 100% strict. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but maybe you can see why people act like that. Similar to why people are fat. Everyone knows HOW to be in shape, but not everyone actually follows through with it. Parenting is the same way, everyone knows what they SHOULD be doing, but if your not already doing it, changing can be difficult. 2. This is the opposite response to #1. Rather than having a confrontation, you can delay it by giving in. Most parents do it out of goodness, not realizing that in the long run it is hurting both them and the child. However, you have to understand that sometimes (like almost every day between the ages of 2 and 3), your so fatigued with the testing that you don't have the patience to make a battle about everything. A recent example for me would be last night. After 8pm my daughter gets extremely cranky. We got back a little after 8 because we were trick-or-treating. She was starting to get testy and she wanted a piece of candy. I did the math in my head, if I say no, I have to deal with a 20 or 30 minute tantrum to get her in bed. Or I can give her some smarties and put her to bed in 5 minutes. I chose the latter. 3. I think this is more women than parents in general. I don't mind if my kids do somewhat dangerous things (like climb things or hang from stuff). I think its good for kids to explore and get hurt and find their limits and overcome fears. My wife, mom, and mother in law, will have nothing of it. I would say the same is true with all of our friends with children. 4. I think this is more a product of our culture than bad parenting. In the old days, you taught kids to defend themselves. If they had a problem, they settled it themselves. Now, that can land you in jail and your kids expelled. This will be one of the hardest things to teach my son growing up. I don't want him to be a bully, I don't want him to be one of those kids who fights about everything. But I don't want him to not stick up for himself either. It's a fine line and will be a hard thing to teach in this day and age of lawsuits. To conclude, parenting is hard work. Really hard. A good parent has to be 100% consistent at all times, extremely patient, and extremely forgiving. To make it worse, all of us come into parenting with our own ideas and thoughts on how it should be done, and little experience. I think the default response is to parent how you were parented, and of course, all of us have diverse experiences with our parents. I can 100% guarantee that things you think now about how you will raise your kids, will change drastically once you have them. Being idealistic is a luxury you don't have once you have a person running around that makes its own decisions.

I pretty much agree with everything, although I'm not a parent (not sure I want to be!). I know my brother and sister in law pretty well, both straight-shooters, sometimes hard-headed, laid back and very liberal (shocker!), and how the kids affected them in good and bad.

Consistency is really hard to enforce for them, especially with two kids. Exhaustion leads to sloppiness, leads to kids taking over. There's an added dynamic and it easy to give mixed signals, then it's back to square one. But yeah, you need to stay consistent, and the kids (clever twerps) will challenge that. At least my nieces do, drives their parents mad. Best not to enter a discussion with them when they start arguing your parenting methods.

I do agree that there is too much P.C. stuff going on nowadays. Although I am really not advocating physical punishment at all, the 'naughty corner' technique works much better than any amount of smacked bottoms.

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Original post by Talroth Should I ever end up having kids, assuming hell doesn't freeze over first, I'm looking into some kind of Subdermal shock based training tool for the kids.

hmm... Pavlov was onto something, but a positive reinforcement could work well in conjonction with mild electroshock treatment. It's worth an experiment, if just for a laugh.

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Original post by Tachikoma

Well, from my limited experience with kids (nieces, nephews, friends kids...), all they seem to want is their parent's attention, often unconditionally. From on-going experimentations, denying them that and letting them know they're not gonna get it and why they're being punished, until they calm down and / or apologise, works best.

I know the environment plays a big part in the upbringing, but really, don't think kids being little shits are the problem. That's what kids do, it's how you deal with it that's important. And I don't think the old ways are best (physical punishment).

But equally, you don't want the kids to run the show.