Quote: Original post by oliii

Quote: Original post by Talroth
Should I ever end up having kids, assuming hell doesn't freeze over first, I'm looking into some kind of Subdermal shock based training tool for the kids.

hmm... Pavlov was onto something, but a positive reinforcement could work well in conjonction with mild electroshock treatment. It's worth an experiment, if just for a laugh.

Exactly. You get good things when you do good. Don't do good things? You don't get good things. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

Quote: Original post by LockePick
Read what you just wrote, and then go read this.

Nein.

While my mates and I were getting up to no good, we always knew our place. Being courteous and display of respect in front of adults, good manners, help the elderly with little things like offering them bus seats (does any kid do that these days?), and so on. These kinds of things were drilled into us, no exceptions.

It's not like we never got caught doing any of that naughty stuff; and when we did, each of us got a good caning from the property owners, or from whomever we messed with. But later we went back to these people with an apology and became quite friendly. They ended up inviting me over to pick cherries, or offer me cakes, dinner on the way back from school, or whatever. It was fun. Same thing with any other people we screwed around with. Lessons were learnt, you see, and that is the point.

Quote: What you're talking about sounds like stereotypically bad parenting. Are you sure you've actually witnessed all these things, or are you just basing this on things you've heard?

I've seen every single one of these in person, save for the parent of a bullied kid being sent to jail for having the audacity to tell the bully to lay off his son, which was a local news story.

Quote: Yes on both accounts. I'm not excusing bad parenting, but after actually having children, I can certainly see why people act the way they do more often.

Certainly; it probably didn't come across at all, but I do realize that parenting is hard. It's fully understandable that people aren't able to do it perfectly (especially since you don't get much of a chance to practice beforehand.) Not having control of your kid 100% of the time is quite excusable (indeed, anything else would be creepy) but when someone complains that your six year old kid just caused them a headache and a lingering ringing in their ears, the correct answer is "I'm sorry, I'll try to keep him in line," not "fuck you, don't tell me how to raise my kids." (No, this is not an exaggeration, I've been in exactly this situation.) Quite simply, many people don't get that having kids means they'll have to alter their behavior, instead thinking that everyone around them has to put up with pretty anything.

Quote: Well, not a fascist but a bit immature.

@OP: if you don't want kids then don't make them. No one forces you (except the government, like "childless tax" *sigh*)

I'm not saying I don't want them, but rather that when I look around I see quite a lot of bad parents; I'm rather afraid I'll turn into something like them when the time comes.

Quote: Original post by superpig
Are you a fascist, Valderman? It sounds like you'd treat your kids as if you were one.

Yes, not overprotecting kids and being respectful to others was what Mussolini was best at. I don't really get what point you're targeting here; is it fascist to think that ignoring your kids because you're reading/texting/on the phone/whatever is a bad idea? Is it fascist to think that parents ought to teach their kids about right and wrong rather than teaching them that they can do whatever they want, including bullying, and anyone who says otherwise is a jackass? Is it fascist to point out that being in the same room as a toaster is more dangerous than trick or treating?

Quote: Original post by Valderman
Certainly; it probably didn't come across at all, but I do realize that parenting is hard. It's fully understandable that people aren't able to do it perfectly (especially since you don't get much of a chance to practice beforehand.) Not having control of your kid 100% of the time is quite excusable (indeed, anything else would be creepy) but when someone complains that your six year old kid just caused them a headache and a lingering ringing in their ears, the correct answer is "I'm sorry, I'll try to keep him in line," not "fuck you, don't tell me how to raise my kids." (No, this is not an exaggeration, I've been in exactly this situation.) Quite simply, many people don't get that having kids means they'll have to alter their behavior, instead thinking that everyone around them has to put up with pretty anything.

I'm not a parent, and I completely understand what you mean, but I think that you are still underestimating just how difficult being a parent can be for someone, especially someone who is in a bad financial situation. Like I said, no personal experience here, but I really think being a consistently good parent is one of the hardest things you could ever try to do.

Quote: Quite simply, many people don't get that having kids means they'll have to alter their behavior, instead thinking that everyone around them has to put up with pretty anything.

I'm not sure this is true. I think it's more likely that these people aren't capable of so severely altering their behavior, and the attitude they might occasionally show to others is a result of anger stemming ultimately from deep-seated psychological guilt over this failure.

[Edited by - nilkn on November 2, 2010 11:32:54 AM]

If you have kids get them involved with activities like boy scouts and go camping and stuff. There has to be a scientific way to raise a kid that never misbehaves. I say this because I never did according to my parents and from what I remember. I'm trying to think how you can create that same kind of behavior. It's probably just related to keeping them busy 24/7 with projects or getting them a hobby. Other than being dragged into boy scouts events (hehe pinewood derbies) I remember my parents got me a computer and tons of educational games (like Reading Rabbit and Math Blaster). That and I don't know if you've ever used an encyclopedia program. I mean now we have Wikipedia, but there was a Compton's Interative Library CD-ROM I had that kept me busy for months. I digress.

Maybe there's an educational way to teach children maturity. I'm sure a child psychologist would know. Also find a way to instill a very strong sense of empathy into them. I'm not sure how I learned that, but it's really important for interacting with people and always stopped me from doing anything immoral.

Quote: Original post by nilkn
I'm not a parent, and I completely understand what you mean, but I think that you are still underestimating just how difficult being a parent can be for someone, especially someone who is in a bad financial situation.

Well that's just irresponsible. There's no reason I can think of to have a kid if you haven't budgeted appropriately. :P It's like when I decided to get a cat. Kids are basically the Macaw of forever pets.

On that note Valderman get a dog. They're less of a commitment.

Quote: Original post by nilkn

Quote: Original post by Valderman
Certainly; it probably didn't come across at all, but I do realize that parenting is hard. It's fully understandable that people aren't able to do it perfectly (especially since you don't get much of a chance to practice beforehand.) Not having control of your kid 100% of the time is quite excusable (indeed, anything else would be creepy) but when someone complains that your six year old kid just caused them a headache and a lingering ringing in their ears, the correct answer is "I'm sorry, I'll try to keep him in line," not "fuck you, don't tell me how to raise my kids." (No, this is not an exaggeration, I've been in exactly this situation.) Quite simply, many people don't get that having kids means they'll have to alter their behavior, instead thinking that everyone around them has to put up with pretty anything.

I'm not a parent, and I completely understand what you mean, but I think that you are still underestimating just how difficult being a parent can be for someone, especially someone who is in a bad financial situation. Like I said, no personal experience here, but I really think being a consistently good parent is one of the hardest things you could ever try to do.

Yeah, I'm sort of scared that's how I'll end up a few years down the road; that's why I'm interested in input from people who don't perceive themselves to have the traits I'm whining about - how can one avoid acquiring a bunch of less desirable traits when having kids?

For the record, I'm not going to in the forseeable future.

Quote: Original post by Valderman
but when someone complains that your six year old kid just caused them a headache and a lingering ringing in their ears, the correct answer is "I'm sorry, I'll try to keep him in line," not "fuck you, don't tell me how to raise my kids." (No, this is not an exaggeration, I've been in exactly this situation.) Quite simply, many people don't get that having kids means they'll have to alter their behavior, instead thinking that everyone around them has to put up with pretty anything.

If the kid is screaming his head off. Then why are you complaining to the parent?

Just go up to the kid and ask "Whats wrong little man?". Just the fact one of those strangers that have been ignoring him, is now addressing him will instantly shut him up 99% of the time. And sense you arn't dumping your complaints on the parent, they will often get embarrassed and even apologize for the kids screaming...Have done this sort of thing thousands of times over the decades, I've NEVER gotten a "fuck you, don't tell me how to raise my kids" or even a "Don't talk to my kid."

To be completely blunt: if you've never raised kids, you don't have a clue so STFU and mind your own business.

If you have kids, you understand and have probably done any of those things at some point. You will fail in being the perfect parent all the time, your kids will resent you for at least something, and everyone else, including people who have never had kids, will know better than you how to raise your kids. You do your best under the circumstances, just like your parents did.

If you have the attitude that the OP has, you're definitely not ready to have kids yet. The only way to become ready is to have kids. First-time parents have no idea of what they're in for. You can't tell them.

Quote: Original post by Bregma
To be completely blunt: if you've never raised kids, you don't have a clue so STFU and mind your own business.

If you have kids, you understand and have probably done any of those things at some point. You will fail in being the perfect parent all the time, your kids will resent you for at least something, and everyone else, including people who have never had kids, will know better than you how to raise your kids. You do your best under the circumstances, just like your parents did.

If you have the attitude that the OP has, you're definitely not ready to have kids yet. The only way to become ready is to have kids. First-time parents have no idea of what they're in for. You can't tell them.

I'm sorry, but no.

Having a little kid does not entitle you to bring it to a restaurant and then ignore it while it annoys everyone else.

When I acted up as a kid in a restaurant, or ANY public place, my mother or father took me to the car and we sat there doing nothing till I learned my lesson. Or we went home and I was grounded. I wasn't told to hush and that I would get a sundae if I quieted down, and then got one anyway if I kept it up.

If I threw a temper tantrum in a store because I wanted something, I Didn't get it. I didn't get it the first time I did it, nor the second time, nor the third, nor anytime.

Don't tell me that a parent can "fail in being the perfect parent all the time" and be referring to that same family with the spoiled brats seen acting up on a weekly basis.

Quote: Original post by Bregma
To be completely blunt: if you've never raised kids, you don't have a clue so STFU and mind your own business.

Logical fallacy. ;) Since when are parents authoritative on this subject? If all parents had a clue, a thread like this would not exist in the first place. Just sayin. I could get into all sorts of semantics, but what if you are constantly surrounded by kids, and sometimes shared the responsibility looking after them, even if they are not yours?

Raising kids is not a prerequisite for possessing the ability of making correct observations and assertions. I dare say, external observations made by a non-parent is probably more objective than observations done within a family. Parents have the tendency to be protective of their offspring, no matter what, so there is a potential for bias right there.