Quote: Original post by Eelco
Just ask me: would I rather live in any country without western values? The answer is a strong and explicit no.

Is that because of the values, or because of the economic wealth that these countries hold? If I found a country that held western values but was depressingly poor, with a chronic lack of facilities, would you consider living there?

It's funny hearing all these Westerners proclaim the superiority of their values when it's the instances in which they abandoned them that have fueled the luxury of their current standards of living.


@LessBread:
I don't think Obama has a coherent military strategy. Why is he bombing Pakistan? Is this just a show of strength to calm Republican nerves? Dude won. Maybe he should act like it and make some decisions based on his actual convictions. You know, assuming he has any! [smile]

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi

Quote: Original post by Eelco
Just ask me: would I rather live in any country without western values? The answer is a strong and explicit no.

Is that because of the values, or because of the economic wealth that these countries hold? If I found a country that held western values but was depressingly poor, with a chronic lack of facilities, would you consider living there?

Of course material wealth is a factor, but not an independent one. Can you give an example of such a country?

I would gladly trade material wealth for a society whos values a share more. When i say 'western values', i dont mean 'what any particular country is implementing now, or in the past', but rather my own idealized version thereof. 'the west' does manage to come closest to that ideal though, no questions about it.

Quote:
It's funny hearing all these Westerners proclaim the superiority of their values when it's the instances in which they abandoned them that have fueled the luxury of their current standards of living.

Bullshit. There is no correlation whatsoever between 'abandoning western values' (ahem), and material wealth.

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi
@LessBread:
I don't think Obama has a coherent military strategy. Why is he bombing Pakistan? Is this just a show of strength to calm Republican nerves? Dude won. Maybe he should act like it and make some decisions based on his actual convictions. You know, assuming he has any! [smile]

During the campaign he said he would bomb Pakistan if necessary, so while it might soothe Republicans, it's consistent with his convictions. Biden might be egging him on too! [grin]

Quote: Original post by Eelco
When i say 'western values', i dont mean 'what any particular country is implementing now, or in the past', but rather my own idealized version thereof. 'the west' does manage to come closest to that ideal though, no questions about it.

Ugh. You need to be much clearer in your statements, rather than expecting people to deduce your intentions.

Quote: Bullshit. There is no correlation whatsoever between 'abandoning western values' (ahem), and material wealth.

Sure there is: exploiting non-Western markets. "Western values" are almost never extended by Western states to non-Western states.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
During the campaign he said he would bomb Pakistan if necessary, so while it might soothe Republicans, it's consistent with his convictions. Biden might be egging him on too! [grin]

Is it necessary, though? I generally view military action as an absolute last resort, and I think we've engaged in far too much of it far too easily.

He must think it is necessary, otherwise it wouldn't happen.

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi
Sure there is: exploiting non-Western markets. "Western values" are almost never extended by Western states to non-Western states.

"Do onto others... but only onto others like you, not onto those weird people over there."

Quote: Original post by _goat
Here's a question: Would the USA, by your definition a trend-setter in this regard, portray itself to the world as greedy, materialistic, unsympathetic, paranoid and arrogant?

I don't understand the question. The US is certainly not the most greedy, materialistic, unsympathetic, paranoid, and arrogant society. People abroad respect the idea of America, even if they disagree with some of our actions. I don't understand what you're getting at.

Quote: The simple fact is that "Western Values" have become the de-facto standard for how nations are judged, because western nations are in the position to judge.

And thank goodness for that. None of the alternatives were any better.

Quote:
Maybe they will continue to hold that position, maybe the emergence of eastern nations as first-class citizens (China and India spring to mind immediately), will change what values are held as things to aspire to.

These countries are rapidly Westernizing themselves. Indians seem to have a deep-seated desire to compare themselves to their former colonial masters. The Chinese have adopted many Western social norms and where they have not yet adopted the grand Western vision of supra-ethnic society, opting instead for a definition of Chinese identity centered about the Han ethnicity, they continue to falter (see Tibet and Xinjiang.) China may one day become a leading power but without becoming Westernized in its attitudes, its culture will not be exportable. It's difficult to see how such a historically inward-looking culture can succeed in inspiring a thoroughly globalized world.

Quote:
But this doesn't address the real issue: Everyone is pretending. Men who beat their wives in drunken rages every week don't boast loudly about it, and nations with greedy, zero-sum agendas don't portray themselves as such to each other. Everybody knows that everyone else is like them, but it's not mentioned explicitly.

Don't assume any superiority in western values, since those values are only held as the appropriate thing to lie about.

So because some men beat their wives we ought not judge this sort of behavior as wrong? It's an interesting example, considering that some non-Western cultures condone wife beating, even in the absence of alcohol. How can you fix a problem if you don't even acknowledge it's there?

Quote: Original post by Oluseyi
It's funny hearing all these Westerners proclaim the superiority of their values when it's the instances in which they abandoned them that have fueled the luxury of their current standards of living.

Industrialization is rsponsible for our standard of living. And that of those who have embraced it as well. Some argue that the West is not aggressive enough in dealing with third world thugs because we have lost the moral fortitude to judge non-whites by our own high standards, succumbing instead to a sort of patronizing racism and moral relativism. I don't know if I totally buy this idea, preferring instead to think that realistic concerns preclude us from aggressive interference in foreign affairs, but it's food for thought.

Quote: Original post by trzy

Quote: Original post by _goat
Here's a question: Would the USA, by your definition a trend-setter in this regard, portray itself to the world as greedy, materialistic, unsympathetic, paranoid and arrogant?

I don't understand the question. The US is certainly not the most greedy, materialistic, unsympathetic, paranoid, and arrogant society.

You will notice that _goat did not say "most," he simply applied those labels to the US.

Quote: So because some men beat their wives we ought not judge this sort of behavior as wrong? It's an interesting example, considering that some non-Western cultures condone wife beating, even in the absence of alcohol.

Name one. A non-Western culture that condones wife beating, that is.

Quote: Original post by trzy
Industrialization is responsible for our standard of living.

Industrialization has led to globalization, which has led to the exploitation of cheap labor in foreign markets. Stop presenting the development of the West as though it occurred in a vacuum without impact on or influence from the rest of the world.