[deleted] [Edited by - XisZ on January 14, 2009 1:24:01 AM]

Quote: Original post by XisZ
So now back to the question.
How do you avoid these nearly unavoidable cliche's without alienating your audience!?

I'm getting mighty tired of JRPGs, and it's because of some of those clichés you mentioned.

The first thing I consider is the game's universe. Not just the setting, but the universe. Huge props for the Wild ARMS series, especially the 3rd installment. Gunslinging wild west-ish universe = awesome.

You know what JRPGs need? Pirates.

Setting the game in the heyday of pirate looting, with the protagonist being a seasoned pirate would surely get people's attention. Just don't make him like Jack Sparrow, for God's sakes.

And because of the setting, having people casting magic would be weird. Items are always overlooked, but they would be essential in this universe. Heck, if you want to add some chuckles to the game, have all healing items be related to "Rum" or something.

And plots are way too focused on this "world" thingy. They could be more personal, you know? Pirates are knows to look out for themselves, so yay for consistency!

Battle system: Parasite Eve-ish, with focus on swordfighting. Ship battles are fun too.
Main draw of the game: exploring the Seven Seas, finding treasure and fighting legendary sea creatures.

(Oh, and there were pirates in Skies of Arcadia, but the main ones were all nice and stuff. Not fun. [wink]

And I'm ignoring Square's SaGa games because they suck, btw. UNLIMITED: SaGa and Romancing Saga: Minstrel Song both have pirates, but they're godawful characters.)

Ephemeral Phantasia is one good example of the "personal" type of story, then however it takes a 360 and changes to a "save the island" story...also has a silvery hair main villain.

Also, I think keeping the story personal is good- but I don't think it would put you in the place of the character. Meaning, you will not feel as if you are the main character- but rather a viewer.

In my opinion though for J-RPG's to survive in the east, they need to take a page out of Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivions book, because there is a non-linear gameplay element to the game, and 100% freedom to explore with literally no limitations (other than the world map boundaries)

If I want to choose to kill a person or let them live, I can- and the game will go along.
If I want to choose to follow the story, or travel to a distant town 50 miles away- I can, and the story will change/move along.


As for the pirate idea, that sounds pretty interesting.
However it would probably be considered a "One Piece Rip-off" and be tossed aside, or even worst maybe actually become a one-piece ripoff!

Quote: Original post by XisZ
In my opinion though for J-RPG's to survive in the east, they need to take a page out of Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivions book, because there is a non-linear gameplay element to the game, and 100% freedom to explore with literally no limitations (other than the world map boundaries)

no they don't,

I'd gladly take all the cliches here than the typical north american CRPG's that don't seem to have any point to them beyond the "find kill loot" cycle complete with your standard fantasy races and mandatory rat killing quests

Quote: Original post by XisZ
Also, I think keeping the story personal is good- but I don't think it would put you in the place of the character. Meaning, you will not feel as if you are the main character- but rather a viewer.

Not necessarily. Making the player feel connected to the character(s) is the writer's duty.

Quote: Original post by XisZ
As for the pirate idea, that sounds pretty interesting.
However it would probably be considered a "One Piece Rip-off" and be tossed aside, or even worst maybe actually become a one-piece ripoff!

That's easy to avoid:
- don't create a limb-stretching pirate that can't swim
- don't create a triple-sword-wielding swordfighting pirate
- don't create a magical berry that gives special powers to whoever eats it

I think that's a pretty good start. [wink]

Quote: Original post by Kaze
no they don't,

I'd gladly take all the cliches here than the typical north american CRPG's that don't seem to have any point to them beyond the "find kill loot" cycle complete with your standard fantasy races and mandatory rat killing quests

Ditto. OMG so sick of MMOs with no linear story, the idea of playing a single player one is like gag me with a spoon.


About cliches, I never really understood the point of obsessing over them, because a story with a crapload of cliches in it is going to be too stupid to be worth the effort of writing, much less making a game around. The only reason there are so many published games with awful stories is the development team didn't have an actual writer on staff, or everyone wanted their ideas in and without a lead writer to keep it consistent it turned into disorganized mush. And on the other hand, if your main concept is original and your characterization and worldbuilding have depth and your plot is tight and fresh, you can use almost all the cliche elements you want and no one will notice them.

i personally like JRPG's. People woh dont like the cliche' are usually taking them way to seriously. I go into them expecting that level of silliness. I don't say "WAIT A SWORD IS NOT MORE POWERFUL THAN A GUN! NOT REALISTIC!"

its not about suspension of disbelief, its about vibe, setting, music, etc.. i thuoght FF6-12, did a pretty great job of this. its the people who don't get it that think they are stupid, its not gritty or realistic etc.

Sword stronger than gun thing... it really depends on location and strength.

A sword can be stronger than a gun in many cases. Sides, Halo definitely wasn't a JRPG, and a punch will take alot more off than a bullet. Its not just JRPG, its story in general. Though there are quite a few that you listed that are more likely in a japanese story than one from some other.

I personally like school oriented ones though. Being able to carry 100 sowrds is a convenience. And most games don't allow drawing weapons in towns, like Fable. Its just a common courtesy thing.

and...

"When you leave a town- you become a giant who can walk on a world map"

would you rather a very small pixel you can't see travelling really slow (which would add to your random battle annoyance)?

And on impossible world maps, its just displayed that way, but if you play a game like ff8, you'd see how it really is because you can toggle between viewing the sphere version or the square version.

... and so on... really, half the complaints you said are kind of stupid imo. The other half does make sense though.

EDIT: Might as well add Time doesn't move and npcs don't actually live lives but instead either wait for you or they follow an algorithm. >.>

Focus on what you want to make, not on what to avoid. After you have a design idea, THEN look at it for clichés. Setting out with 'I will not make clichéd stuff' is a recipe for not coming up with much.

Quote: A sword can be stronger than a gun in many cases. Sides, Halo definitely wasn't a JRPG, and a punch will take alot more off than a bullet.

Being able to carry 100 swords is a convenience. And most games don't allow drawing weapons in towns, like Fable. Its just a common courtesy thing.

would you rather a very small pixel you can't see travelling really slow (which would add to your random battle annoyance)

EDIT: Might as well add Time doesn't move and npcs don't actually live lives but instead either wait for you or they follow an algorithm. >.>

Right, the sword is only stronger though because it is some sort of "plasma" sword (Forgive me for forgetting what it was...)

As for a way to carry around that many weapons/items/etc., If it is some sort of futuristic set game, how about a complex device that "atomizes" anything you put into it- or better yet NanoBots that form to whatever set of instructions they are given and as you advance you can "program" better weapons?
If it is a game set in the past- why not have some sort of pack-mule that can be considered an invisible character that only comes up in your start menu?

Traveling, I would rather have a huge world (Even if most of it is procedurally generated, or computer generated then slightly edited) with enemies that are on the stage (Final Fantasy XII style), this gives me the feeling of being in an actual world- rather than a series of "Rooms"- and of course for those who hate traveling, give them an option to "fast travel", this allows them to travel to any location on the map (I guess so long as it is a major city, or known location.) and just play the game, skipping some of the leveling grind.

And time, thats another one on my list as well- but then again how is it possible to skip that?

Quote: People woh dont like the cliche' are usually taking them way to seriously. I go into them expecting that level of silliness. I don't say "WAIT A SWORD IS NOT MORE POWERFUL THAN A GUN! NOT REALISTIC!"

its not about suspension of disbelief, its about vibe, setting, music, etc.. i thuoght FF6-12, did a pretty great job of this. its the people who don't get it that think they are stupid, its not gritty or realistic etc.

Cliche and annoyances are two different things all together- a cliche is something like "Avin Van'Dall was a young guard in the Tokyo City military in 2029 and one day his city is destroyed by an over powering evil warlord from an ancient time and is controlled by the 12 leaders of KimKo Corp. located in New Yokohama, Suddenly Avin bumps into the warlord and discovers he has powers beyond his control and by some amazing co-incidence bumps into people at random intervals of time who have the same goal!"

^ That is what I'm tired of in most J-RPG's.

And yes Music, Setting, Graphics and Gameplay are all each their own important part of the game- but how about some original story?

Quote:
I'd gladly take all the cliches here than the typical north american CRPG's that don't seem to have any point to them beyond the "find kill loot" cycle complete with your standard fantasy races and mandatory rat killing quests

Isn't that the point of J-RPG's as well though?

Find: Find x way out of x puzzle, Find x item in x city and bring it to x character, . . it's even the first word in Final Fantasy 8's fire cave "Find Your Way" if you're wondering.

Kill: Kill insanely powerful boss. . .who dosn't decide to kill you at the beginning for no reason.
Kill x amount of enemies to level up.

Loot: Get a key to open up the Cave of Golden Mystery! Loot: Find the lost kingdoms treasure,

and. . . many square games have many fantasy races. . . including Bunny People (Fran - Final Fantasy XII), Dog People (Khimari Ronso - Final Fantasy X, Nanaki (a.k.a. Red XIII) - Final Fantasy VII), Lizard People (Azayla - Chrono Trigger)

Also, if i remember, Final Fantasy also has "Kill the rat" quest. . .just instead of a rat its a rabbit. . .or some other weak character in the game.
This quest is just a way to give you a tutorial for fighting- just like how when you first start the game someone tells you to "Come here!- to move use the analog stick and push it foreward)- press A to talk to me when you are finished!







Phew, well that was one long post