Original post by Way Walker Care needs to be taken, though. I'd say if you're going to send the player through story-choke-points, then don't give them many (if any) story choices. Make the choices game-play related. Deus Ex was fairly good at this, I'm guessing Thief was better.
Not really; Deus Ex is a better example since we're talking about RPGs. Thief was strictly mission based, however the way you accomplished those missions was usually very freeform. The story was mostly told through the mission briefings, however additional material could be found throughout the level and just eavesdropping onto conversations (i.e. not through pause-and-wait cutscenes). If there was anything you had to see for the story to make sense, it was located at the mission objective. But Deus Ex is a better example because it also had the same idea but with a more freeform "feel" to its structure - even though it really is quite linear if you analyse it.
Actually I feel that SWG pre NGE was a near perfect example of what I like in a MMO. The only MMO that currently matches what I feel is near perfect is AC1. I do however realize that what I like does not reflect the majorities tastes. Sadly both of my favs are in a state of stagnation. AC1 has more bots actively playing than people and SWG got hosed (IMHO) with the NGE. Oh well.
Fact is I would pay $50.00 per month for the privilege to play an updated, active, and botless version of AC1. $40.00 for old SWG. I'm strange though. But I can't be the only one.
Original post by Kevinator The map design thing I definitely agree with. I hate WoW primarily because the zones totally suck. There's barriers to exploration *everwhere* and no matter where I go, I never feel like I'm off on my own in the wilderness doing some exploring. Now Star Wars Galaxies; that game had FANTASTIC maps and terrain. I spent hours and hours and more hours just running around the beautiful wilderness. And not a SINGLE damn invisible wall like WoW. I could roam the wilderness for hours and not bump into a single soul. It was fantastic.
This might be because no one played SWG because of the clusterfuck SOE turned the best idea ever (starwars mmo) into.
Original post by Saruman You actually just noted 5 of the top ideas that have pushed the genre forward. I mean you may not like them, but they have started bringing MMO type games to the masses. The vast majority of players don't want to sit on a boat wasting their time, they actually want to know what to do next in a quest, etc. The start points are imo one of the greatest improvements in these types of games. When I start a fresh new game I don't want to have to try and figure out how to run somewhere for an hour or two just to play with my friends.
MMOs are getting more and more like games and less like a second job and a lot of the reason is due to some of the changes you have mentioned.
EDIT:
I just wanted to note that this is an unbiased opinion. I actually don't play any MMO type games anymore because I liked the older virtual world style as it was more like oldschool PnP RPGs.
Um, you may be unbiased, but doesn't that also mean you're uninformed?
I have also been thinking a lot about the differences between old and new generation MMO games.
I often wonder, did those early days of Everquest seem magical because it was a new experience, or because the experience itself was different, ro a combination of the two? Is the experience something that can be recaptured time and time again within the same game, or are all MMOs destined to lose appeal over time?
Repetition is a big part of the problem. No matter how innovative, once something becomes too repetetive, it will get old. Many people like to push for masses of content to get around this problem, but I'm starting to wonder if the answer is to look at adding new fundamental gameplay mechanics to supplement the new content.
I think this would be best achieved by having optional areas offering new forma of gameplay based around the central concept. The new forms of gameplay would help to create that feeling of being a newbie with something to master. it would help create a certain fear of the unknown, which also brings with it a thrill.
Also, although perhaps bad for the majority of new MMO players, I somewhat liked the idea of all players running around in the same zone instead of instanced encounters. Having to avoid killstealers and fight for key spawns, although at the time they seemed a pain in the backside, now I think of them in a good light because when you finally achieved obtaining 'Item X', you got the greatest sense of achievement. Also, although no world would be crammed to bursting point with heroes in one area, instanced zones do somewhat take away some of the life of the game in my opinion. I think a mix of instanced zones and non-instanced zones would be pretty cool, and I don't mean in the sense of non-instanced cities like in GuildWars.
So in short, I suppose my point (which may be slightly off topic), is that I think MMO's may recapture some old feelings by offering a wide breadth of experiences, none of which are forced upon a player. As a side effect, I think this will also reduce the issue of 'the grind'.
As for the OP's points: Quest logs. I agree in the sense that if we tell the player too much, there is less challenge. I think a part of questing should be trying to work out the riddle that explains where you need to go to to find 'Item X', without being directly told where to go. I think sometimes people don't give the average player enough credit for intelligence. As long as quests are reasonably intuitive I think the system suggested would be easy enough for most people to work out. Perhaps a split system where new players are guided in this manner, but veteran players above a certain level switch to the less 'hand holding' version.
"Better" world design. I can't comment on this one too much as the one current Gen MMO I have played (GuildWars) had pretty good world design that didn't funnel you too much, but as I said earlier, I believe that breadth of experience is a valuable asset for any MMO, so in essence I agree.
Instant transportation. I am deeply torn over the issue of boats. I also remember whiling away the time on EQs boats and damn did it make the world feel huge. It formed an experience I'm glad to have had, despite being slow, boring and repetetive in many ways, I felt like I really had sailed to a land far away. I think the way around this is to offer an incentive for such travel. Make players want to do so. Perhaps have the player captain a ship between areas or have encounters en-route. Offer an alternative method of instant transportation with the sole disadvantage being that you will not experience the seabourne adventures those who take boats will. In this way, both experiences are catered for and there is a valid reason for going either way... speed, or gameplay experience.
Conversations (or the list of choices) I like the concept of HTML style conversations and had considered the idea myself in the past.
Consolidating start points I don't think this is too big a problem, but I can see your point. Again, I would default to agreeing with you because I think choice and breadth of experience are the way forward.
When the goal is subcriber base, you have to say WoW got it righter than anyone else.
I think you're describing your personal desire for an MMO, and i share some of them with you.
my desires would be:
perma-death. no instancing. player spawned content. closed system ecology.(ala the original Ultima Online) unique loot. non-consentual pvp. player housing/buildings. epic, server changing battles. persistent world/not necessarily persistent characters.
hmm... and i thought that mmo's had always been like this
i'm a newer mmo player ... i rarely play the games to teh finish because i just havent been satasfied with any mmo's
i never played anyof the old games because i was just too yound , didnt realy know about them at alll
here is what i think
on the lower lvl quests the npc should say almost EXACTLY what he wants you to know and then as the quests progress through the game they should become more vauge and such and u can take on easyer quests and still get by in the game so both "hard cores" and "Casuals" can get by
also .... THE WORLDS IN MMO's in general SUCK
i quit eq2 the first month ... it was very fun and overall interesting ...except for the gnolls being super strong... BUT MAINLY because no one was ever in the city ... the game is based upon the struggles between cities but ... no one was there , there was no main comerce nothing
would it kill game designers to
1) make cities comerce involved and the center of trade 2) make cities more fun to be in so all the people wont be out and about dreading their trip to the boring city
also the world design issue
yeh this gets on my nerves , i think that they should make it to wear the easier monsters are closser to the town and around the round and the stronger ones are out in unusual places outside the town WAY of road so we dont have to travel aimlessly hunting monsters and such from area to area as the game progresses
also... more skill oriented combat... face it it takes alot more skill in a shooter to get a kill then moderern day rpgs combat in most mmos's is just ... point , click, skill, another skill, dead. whoever uses the better skills and is stronger wins, can we plz get
handson combat is better in my opinion , but hey these are my thoughts
About quest logs, which you say WoW dumbs down too much. It is common knowledge that many people in WoW don't even read the quest log text, just the objective, and ask for quest help in general chat when the answer is probably in the quest text. Moreover, if people don't know the exact location for a quest mob/item they look it up on thottbot. While I understand you want players to put more thought into quests, the reality is players just want to get the quest done as soon as possible for exp or rewards and don't care about story.
Original post by Scint About quest logs, which you say WoW dumbs down too much. It is common knowledge that many people in WoW don't even read the quest log text, just the objective, and ask for quest help in general chat when the answer is probably in the quest text. Moreover, if people don't know the exact location for a quest mob/item they look it up on thottbot. While I understand you want players to put more thought into quests, the reality is players just want to get the quest done as soon as possible for exp or rewards and don't care about story.
But isn't that because the quests are not compelling?
