Morrowind and Oblivion have emotions taken into account in character conversation. However, it's still pretty limited, and I think they took a step back in Oblivion...

They're all tough areas, but I bet we can make a common concencus: Crappy beginnings and zones kill replay value. Through either just plain sucking or being very one-way. Other then that, a fun game has gotta' be a bit challening, and a little bit open, so it doesn't feel like we're playin' a book. People calling from older games may still prefer this, but c'mon, it's the 21st century... let's get some interactive story goin' at least. :P

To what extent and exactly how we could debate over for ever, and give examples of why this worked so well or that tanked... It's all pretty situational... if you have a bad game, for what ever reason, it's going to reflect bad on everything else. If you have a killer game, it's going to make certain things look better. I guess it all depends on how you do things on a per game basis... a fun game is just a fun game! The ones that really stand out always have quite a few things that made them shine... and all of them have one thing in common:

what ever was designed in fit well and was fun to play.

Saruman is right unfortunately, us 'hard-core' gamers are really the only ones that would want most to all of those 5 features removed. The only way your going to get what you want is to make an Indie MMO and accept from the outset that your not going to do well financially because the *other main thing* the majority of hard core gamers want is great graphics and the other kind of content that can't be produced by an small indie team anywhere near the quantity of a Retail MMO.

Well, I think the only thing I'd agree on is quest involvment. If I can do more then select yes, no, or complete, I find it more immersive. If some/most quests had 2 or more endings, or ways to accomplish them, it'd be more interactive. Of course, kill 10 hedgehogs isnt going to change, but the more in depth quests may.

Also, the zones in WoW SUCK. Every zone is closed except a couple paths, and everything is grouped. No need to explore, the zones are really kinda small. And there isnt really a reward for exploring either.

I totally agree with waiting for travel. Its the ignorance of the masses that want everything "Now, now." Well I'll tell you what, there is nothing better than being immersed in a game-world, to me, what happens BEFORE the combat is the best part, because it makes it a special event. And it makes you more dedicated and serious. And a game must go beyond the combat to be good. Yet combat must be good and deep, with CONTENT. Its just like how all new movies need their new fast-paced action when the plot is terrible nowadays. This is always true, whenever a genre expands to the larger crowd, prepare to be dumped. The golden age is over and every game tries to be the same now.

It seems to me that everyone presumes that Wow and other MMOs are popular is because people are stupid and they need things to be dumbed down. I dont think thats the case, its just that no one has come up with a decent and intelligent format that is a little forgiving.

It would be quite easy to make quests which dont completely hand you the answer and yet if you need and ask for more information it gives it to you. The trouble with most quests or puzzles in games, is theres not enough connections, all that is required, is for you to figure the exact pathway that the programmers created for you, and usually there is only one way of finding that out.

As for the teleportation I think that is a problem, if you have that in a world then depending on how intelligently you built it. In certain small areas you will have large numbers of people because of the ease of travel and certain things that people require in those areas. If you do not have instant travel then people will have to think more about where they travel and they may end up more spread out and stick to certain smaller areas.

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Original post by Torquemeda As for the teleportation I think that is a problem, if you have that in a world then depending on how intelligently you built it. In certain small areas you will have large numbers of people because of the ease of travel and certain things that people require in those areas. If you do not have instant travel then people will have to think more about where they travel and they may end up more spread out and stick to certain smaller areas.

Yeah, kinda like real life, huh? [smile]

We don't have teleportation, but you tend to get larger numbers of people where travel is easiest. That's why St. Louis was the gateway to the West. That's why Chicago beat out St. Louis. That's why Duluth is pretty much in the middle of no where. That's why San Francisco grew. Coming from a rural area, I can tell you that the only reason many small towns still exist is because they're on a railroad line.

Sure, combat isn't the only thing in a MMORPG. Sure, it's everything surrounding the combat that I really enjoy in MMORPG's. However, one thing I don't enjoy is setting "auto-run" for twenty minutes to see something new. "But you'll miss the scenery!" Yeah, if I wanted scenery, I'd take a trip to the coast or something IRL. And, I'll tell you, I'll fly, or at least drive, before I walk there.

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Original post by Conner McCloud Quote: Original post by robert4818 Quest logs. While extreamly helpful, they have dumbed down quests to a series of complete the quest log tasks. I don't need a step by step set of instructions to complete a quest. It defeats the purpose. Quest logs need to be trimed downin thier "helpfulness." Give the quest name, the dialog associated with the quest, the starting location of the quest, and if the dialog specifically states a number of items / kills / etc to collect then list that. Also include an area for the player to make notes. These changes will allow for quest logs to be helpful, and at the same time, not insult my intelligence by telling me that I now need to return to farmer johnson after Ive killed 10 chickens on his farm. OK, so you've removed "return to farmer johnson", but everything else is exactly the same. So what have you really gained? You could remove the real objective as well, but then they'd just have to put the real objective into the quest dialogue. Unless you want the player to guess how many items to collect, and just return to Farm Johnson over and over again until he's happy. So again, you haven't really gained anything. The next step would be to remove the quest log all together, but that's horribly inconvenient. Creating my own quest log and filling it with a bunch of notes isn't fun.

I don't see why a quest log couldn't just tell you about what's happened in the past and not so much what you need to do in the future. If the log records the conversation you had with farmer Johnson, then at some point he probably said, "Please get 10 apples and return them to me." Everything I need to complete the quest is right there. I don't need to be told what step I'm on. If there was some complication or twist to the quest, then that should be recorded too. "The evil Baron von Brickenbracken has poisoned all the trees in the orchard and no apples are growing. I must find a new source."

There's leading the player and then there's leading the player.

As for conversation systems, as mentioned, they've all sucked ever since the first games have come out.

The other things I can't comment on because I haven't really played any MMOs.

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Original post by kseh I don't see why a quest log couldn't just tell you about what's happened in the past and not so much what you need to do in the future. If the log records the conversation you had with farmer Johnson, then at some point he probably said, "Please get 10 apples and return them to me." Everything I need to complete the quest is right there. I don't need to be told what step I'm on. If there was some complication or twist to the quest, then that should be recorded too. "The evil Baron von Brickenbracken has poisoned all the trees in the orchard and no apples are growing. I must find a new source." There's leading the player and then there's leading the player. As for conversation systems, as mentioned, they've all sucked ever since the first games have come out. The other things I can't comment on because I haven't really played any MMOs.

You will begin to develop an appreciation for quest logs as your life gets busier and you begin to have non-gaming responsibilities like work or family. The quest log isn't there because the casual gamers are more stupid than you; it's there because they are busier and don't get to play as much. So they log off after their conversation with Farmer Johnson, deal with a multitude of real life issues that are vastly more important to remember than where Farmer Johnson told them to go and exactly how many apples he wanted, and then log back into the game three days later. At that point, they only have an hour to play before they have to go walk the dog or go to work, and they don't want to spend half of that time re-reading the last twelve pages of their journal trying to remember what exactly they were doing when they logged off.

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You will begin to develop an appreciation for quest logs as your life gets busier and you begin to have non-gaming responsibilities like work or family. The quest log isn't there because the casual gamers are more stupid than you; it's there because they are busier and don't get to play as much. So they log off after their conversation with Farmer Johnson, deal with a multitude of real life issues that are vastly more important to remember than where Farmer Johnson told them to go and exactly how many apples he wanted, and then log back into the game three days later. At that point, they only have an hour to play before they have to go walk the dog or go to work, and they don't want to spend half of that time re-reading the last twelve pages of their journal trying to remember what exactly they were doing when they logged off.

Yeah I agree with that, although I think thats more a problem with the large amount of gameplay in the few MMORPGS that I have played which is mostly long and tedious. For instance Crafting and building involves you sitting and waiting for bars to fill up, collecting ingredients from plants or objects and such waiting for bars to fill up. Even the combat is generally tedious, it taking many hits to kill simple foes like rats or orcs. I dont really believe anyone enjoys these things in themselves, its the rewards that they get from them, etc. exp and items.

Perhaps if a game made those parts shorter and didnt lead people by the hand telling them where to go so much and rewarded people for finding their own ways. Also if the emphasis wasnt so much on rushing to get towards the end and if the obssesion wasnt to become UBER LVL 60 Warrior number 7802. Perhaps if the combat had more subtlety and more of the general gameplay was fun and had variety then people might be more willing to explore and experiment in it no matter how little time they have.

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Original post by Torquemeda Yeah I agree with that, although I think thats more a problem with the large amount of gameplay in the few MMORPGS that I have played which is mostly long and tedious. For instance Crafting and building involves you sitting and waiting for bars to fill up, collecting ingredients from plants or objects and such waiting for bars to fill up. Even the combat is generally tedious, it taking many hits to kill simple foes like rats or orcs. I dont really believe anyone enjoys these things in themselves, its the rewards that they get from them, etc. exp and items. Perhaps if a game made those parts shorter and didnt lead people by the hand telling them where to go so much and rewarded people for finding their own ways. Also if the emphasis wasnt so much on rushing to get towards the end and if the obssesion wasnt to become UBER LVL 60 Warrior number 7802. Perhaps if the combat had more subtlety and more of the general gameplay was fun and had variety then people might be more willing to explore and experiment in it no matter how little time they have.

I think it's a matter of perspective. What you call "being led by the hand" is what other people call "an engaging storyline". What you call "being rewarded for finding your own way" is what other people call "i spent an hour running around the stupid woods trying to find the quest guy before I gave up and googled his location".