Okay, I want to dispel this myth that linear games inherently have no strategy. That's simply not the case, those of you who are claiming it are using this cop-out to try to bolster your argument. I can't count the number of times changing my strategy in a linear FPS has allowed me victory where other strategies failed. Even the slightest change can alter your chances of victory tenfold. This is especially obvious in the ironman games, which I enjoy, where you are not allowed to save anywhere you want. Usually you have a set amont of lives before you have to start over and try again.

This results in playing the same difficult areas over many times. This is a great opportunity to try new strategies; I can't even begin to describe the rush I feel when I am finally victorious after 5 tries because I altered my strategy.

But then, if you hit quicksave every five seconds, I could see where you wouldn't think linear games involve any strategy.

Quote:

You can make a truly amazing nonlinear game, but can you then embed a truly amazing linear game within it? If so, I'd wager you have more development resources than the average game maker. At some point practicalities must be brought into the equation; making good nonlinear games is hard, simply because you have to code in all those player choices and their effects.

Precisely! That's why I think it would be in everyone's interest to really allocate resources to researching tools that can ease the development process. Simulation, procedural data generation, AI etc. will help in the automated creation of content for games. Human resources should only be focused in areas where computers can't be used yet: Writing interesting events, storylines, characters etc. as well as setting the general game rules, theme and mood.

Quote:

I can't even begin to describe the rush I feel when I am finally victorious after 5 tries because I altered my strategy.

Good for you. I, on the other hand hate the "load game" - spell that is all too often included in the game design (because it will be exploited anyway, better prepare for it). You die and reload until you get a big picture of what's going on and plan your strategy accordingly. As for me the story is the biggest motivator to play a strongly linear game such as HL2, I think moments like these break the flow of the story. [For me] it feels like watching a movie just to replay each fight scene ten times. Or like reading a book, but randomly reading the same page ten times.

Quote:

Original post by ruistola [For me] it feels like watching a movie just to replay each fight scene ten times. Or like reading a book, but randomly reading the same page ten times.

And that's a difference between you and me. First time I watch a movie, I'll watch it straight through. However, when I watch it again, I'm very likely to watch a particularly good scene a couple times. When reading a book, I'll definitely read a good passage more than once even on the first run through.

Quote:

Original post by Wavinator The main difference I've heard between sandbox game players and linear game players is motivation, btw: Sandbox players are said to be internally motivated, often testing themselves against intrinsic rules and goals. Linear gamers are said to be more extrinsically motivated, testing themselves against rules and goals imposed externally.

Maybe that could be true for someone while while playing a particular game...But I know a few hardcore non-linear gamers whom lack the internal motivation in thier real world lives to better themselves. Instead they rather bury thier heads in the virtual sandbox then venture outdoors and interact with people on a real face to face level.

Doesn't mean all or even most hardcore non-linear fans are like that...but you have to wonder why some such fans value so dearly the amount of time it takes to play the game to the fullest. I mean there are a number of full time Everquest players whom spend the vast majority of thier time playing that game, kinda nieve then to suggest that they have the internal motivation to explore the real world to the fullest.

Hmm.. while others might think most of the stuff written here is not very important, but it's actually nice to see someone talking about how much he likes linearity in games, seeing that everybody is trying to make their games as open as posible.

Maybe it's simply that there is a bunch of players who use games to make themselves feel relaxed from the complex world that they don't understand. Having a game that they understand makes them feel secure, and when they can guess what is going to happen next in the story they feel even better.

Most of the time I like open ended games. Something that lets me find a person hidding, steal something from that person, use it against that person and then throw that person to partners while I mash a button that causes my character to laugh. And then remember is just a game and think about how it would be if it wouldn't actually be evil to do that to others.

But when I'm tired of my life, see that everything is falling appart, I want to play a game that I will not obviously beat, but that doesn't offers much choices, and a place where it seems like I actually know what to do. I don't care if it's just a game, or if the game is easier than the average, if I already know the trick to beat the hardest boss... I just want things to go well.

Maybe the people who play linear games because of this have their feelings more strongly tied to the games their play. If they win the game they feel that they can fix their problems, but if they cannot even beat a game how will they solve the problems that seem to be infinitely harder than a game? they could know it deep down, but not in a conscious way.

I think there should be more linear games. I have never seen "long linear story" listed as the most brilliant feature of a game.

Plus, if your game makes the players feel better about themselves while they are depressed, they will like it more than usual, and it gets popularity points ;)

Linear games might be better for people who don't think very openly too, but I'm sure there gotta be other reasons to play linear games instead of an open game besides giving a sense of security and making it easier for people with little experience with games. Any ideas?

The primary reason I like to play Linear games is that they impart a greater sense of progressive achievement. That is to say, the design of the game usually creates a greater awareness of advancement through the game. There is a definitive start, a definitive end, and definitive milestones in between. It is about providing a clear path to the primary goal of finishing the game, not about providing mindless and simple gaming to feeble drones who are unable to think for themselves.

Truly difficult linear games provide a challenge to the gamer. You either succeed at what you are meant to do, or you don't. There is no way to cheat yourself out of any experience the game might have to offer. (Not entirely true, since many linear games have optional sidetracks which will return you to the main path when done, but you won't be missing any of the primary experience).

Non-linear games provide a different sort of achievement, a more personal achievement because wherever you are in the game, you are there because of choices you made. Not because you would have gotten there regardless, since you MUST. For someone who likes to have a clear goal, and likes to see that goal moving steadily closer, the 'this path precludes the other' effect in non-linear games is rather deterring.

A non-linear game provides whatever experience the gamer wishes to have (within the framework of the game), whereas a linear game provides a purposefully designed experience. Many people would rather not have to deal with creating an experience for themselves, and would be more entertained by just experiencing. And I'm pretty sure the primary goal of a game is that it entertains those that play it.

I'm not as much an advocate of linear games as the OP appears to be, and in fact, my primary problem with non-linear games is that they seem rather shallow. Take NWN, for example. Sure, you have many places you can go, many things you can do, but do any of them provide you with a real purpose? Does it seem to even matter which way you go?

I mean, honestly, half the quests just seem to be slight variations of eachother. Bring X to Y, kill Z to get item C, explore D to find the F. Of course, these are found in linear RPGs, however, I find it more bearable in those because I know completing said quest will help fulfill the purpose of the game story.

Basically, I believe the non-linear games require a new form of design, rather than just using a lot of optional linear storylines with no clear reason to pursue any of them. If these games were designed with a somewhat fulfilling purpose, I would have no problem with them at all.

Quote:

Original post by Coz I'm sure there gotta be other reasons to play linear games instead of an open game besides giving a sense of security and making it easier for people with little experience with games. Any ideas?

You should read the thread. Seriously. Your questions has been answered several times.

These are reasons why I play linear games:

1) Linear games provide a purposeful experience. I love the experience of playing American McGee's Alice. I love the experience of playing Deus Ex. I don't think you could get that experience from a non-linear game.

2) Linear games provide a purposeful challenge. When I hear people speaking of challenges in non-linear games, it generally comes from playing with some player-induced handicap. Basically, they create challenges by taking some subset of the entire experience. Linear games provide a challenge without limiting the experience. (I'm sure someone will attribute this to lack of willpower. That's irrelevant. I've plenty of willpower. I've played "blaster only" Megaman, "no magic" Final Fantasy, etc. in the past.)

3) I see real life as the ultimate in non-linear, permadeath, no save game. I haven't seen a non-linear game that can come any where close to creating an experiece as rich as a well crafted linear game nor as rich as real life.

These are not reasons why I play linear games:

1) I do not use games to make myself feel relaxed from a complex world that I don't understand. I understand the world well enough and I actually find the interplay of rules in linear games to be much more complex than those in non-linear games.

2) I do not play linear games because I'm close minded. In fact, I don't think I've seen any correlation between how open minded someone is and how linear they like their games. I could just as easily justify the opposite conclusion: Close minded people are more likely to see games as silly and frivolous and would see more use in games the closer they come to simulating the real world.

Of course, in a few posts, I made half-hearted attempts at this form of thinly veiled name calling (which I inferred from the slightly patronizing/condescending tone of your post and the fact that I've never known "closed minded" to be meant as a complement). My hope was to show the absurdity of looking down one's nose at another for having differing opinions. As usual, though, I think I was subtle to a fault and only hope I didn't look like an ass.

Disclaimer: I've not read the whole thread (no time!) so do just take this as a response to the original poster.

Quote:

Original post by Kevinator Take Morrowind for instance. The place is so large and so complex and so non-linear that I am completely overwhelmed. I have no choice but to completely shut down or severely limit my experience to a subset of what the game has to offer. Games like Morrowind I never ever finish. I get bored very quickly because I don't know where to go or what to do. The sheer complexity overwhelms me.

I find this interesting because it sounds like you have trouble making decisions, at least when it comes to your entertainment - no offence intended. I used to know someone who had 2 major tasks to complete before a certain deadline, and yet although the deadline gave him loads of time to complete both amply, he found that the presence of both paralysed him, leading him to do a poor job on both. On the other hand, I would have just focused on one, done it, then done the other. Non-linear games are the same - just pick a path and enjoy it. Make a note of the path you didn't choose so you can come back to it later if you like.

Quote:

I feel cozy when a game is linear. That's the only way to describe it.

I feel trapped when a game is linear. I wonder why I'm not just reading a book or watching a film where the quality of storytelling and acting is superior. That's not to say that I can't appreciate games with great stories, but I don't consider it a replacement for having real choices within the game. Sid Meier once said that, "A game is a series of interesting choices", and I agree with him. The more linear the game, the shorter that series and the less interesting the choices tend to be.

You seem to come from the film/book side of computer gaming. I would say that I come from the simulation/board game side of computer gaming. For me, the quality of the game comes from the choices and the options available to me. It's just personal preference though.

I just think we need to acknowledge that different games suit different people. :)

Quote:

Original post by Kylotan Sid Meier once said that, "A game is a series of interesting choices", and I agree with him. The more linear the game, the shorter that series and the less interesting the choices tend to be.

Ironically, this is why I prefer linear games. I see them as providing me just the interesting choices.

Quote:

You seem to come from the film/book side of computer gaming. I would say that I come from the simulation/board game side of computer gaming.

Again, I feel I prefer linear games because I see video games as an extension of board games into computers.

Quote:

It's just personal preference though. I just think we need to acknowledge that different games suit different people. :)

Quoted for emphasis. [grin]

Quote:

Original post by Way Walker You should read the thread. Seriously. Your questions has been answered several times.

I should type disclaimers like Kylotan XD

Quote:

Original post by Way Walker 3) I see real life as the ultimate in non-linear, permadeath, no save game. I haven't seen a non-linear game that can come any where close to creating an experiece as rich as a well crafted linear game nor as rich as real life.

Quote:

Original post by Way Walker Ironically, this is why I prefer linear games. I see them as providing me just the interesting choices.

Sound like non-linear games are poor replacements of life for you. If you compare the choices in non-linear games with life, game's choice are definitely worse, so if that's your way of looking at them I guess that very few games are gonna be good enough.

But I do dislike games where the different choices are all very similar, which feels like no matter what I choose it will be the same... I would rather like to feel that the choices are different but I have no way of knowing which one is better.

[Edited by - Coz on January 16, 2006 8:31:29 PM]