Oh, my. What I never have thought could have happened has happened. Someone has been corrupted with the theory of linear games! Hahaha.

It's your opinion, of course. Guess this is something I should pay attention to when I finish my college program and get out to develop games. My goals are to create EXTREMELY customizable games that practically do not even end by how non-linear they are. Of course, I have some stories plotted in my head for certain games, but I love the feeling of growing your characters in whatever way you want that is 100% different from any other players out there. That every game you start is different. That's my opinion and my goals for game design.

It's great to see other interests out there though, gives me more of a take on the current market.

Quote:

Original post by Nathan Baum Quote: Original post by Way Walker After reading this post, I think my definition of linear is much nearer you definition of non-linear. For example, I think Deus Ex is a linear game, but it has situations like your proposed baby-slaughtering situation (modest or otherwise [lol]). I don't think I proposed a baby-slaughtering situation...

Quote:

Original post by Nathan Baum For example, suppose there's a room full of badies. In a non-linear game you could rush in there guns blazing; you could knock out the light and sneak through whilst they're confused; you could tempt them out one at a time and take them down silently; you could sneak through the air ducts (which are always large enough for a fully grown human); you could break a water pipe, flood the room and shoot a desklamp off the table onto the floor and electrocute them (the fuse wouldn't flip because military bases in games are always deathtraps run by incompetent fools, hence the guns lying around everywhere and the excessive use of explosive barrels).

Three out of five of your suggestions involve the killing of babies. Anyway, it was more an excuse to make a vague Swift reference. [wink]

EDIT: My bad, I read "badies" as "babies". [headshake] I find the latter much more amusing, though. [evil]

Quote:

Original post by Timus StarCraft is the greatest game ever. The campaign was linear as could be, but what, was the choice between building a firebat or ghost too much :P? Anyhow, I am the exact opposite of you. I hate games that play like a movie. This doesn't mean I am a big fan of the open rpg genre, this just means I HATE Final Fantasy seven, why? There was zero choice! Other than naming your character of course (and most of us just go with Cloud, Barret, Tifa and Aeris) playing games like final fantasy have the exact same playing experience as holding down the play button on my grandfathers broken VCR.

I think there was a lot of choice in FF7. Choosing characters (which affects which limit breaks are available), choosing materia (many combinations, many strategies), choosing weapon/armor (better protection or more materia?). It was about cultivating a team (Cloud, Vincent, Red XIII for me). Granted, there could've been more, but the only way I could see there being zero choice is if you wanted to have some impact on the story (aside from the date scene). However, that, to me, would be like complaining that you couldn't try to negotiate peace in StarCraft. That's not what this game is about.

Of course, you're free to HATE that game mechanic, but don't say it has zero choice just because it doesn't offer the choices you want.

I think we may be missing out on some distinctions here...

Any game is going to require some kind of choice to you, because games are interactive. Most of those choices are going to be related to the game's genre. For example, a platforming game would require you to decide when to run and when to jump. A tactical RPG requires you to decide where to place your units and what abilities they should use. Same for chess, minus the abilities. These are not examples of nonlinearity. They are examples of gameplay. Typically any situation where you are making gameplay decisions can be thought of as part of a given scenario. For a tactical RPG, a scenario would be one battle. For chess, it's one game. For an FPS, it's one room or area.

Nonlinearity applies at a larger scale. Not if your character should use the machinegun or the pistol, but if your character should side with the cops or the gangsters. In a linear game, you would be on one side or the other, enemies and allies clearly dilineated (barring plot twists). In a nonlinear game you would have that choice to make, and it would significantly affect how things fall out down the line. Within the context of one of those decisions, you get to make many gameplay decisions like the examples I listed above, and the gameplay scenarios you face are determined by which "plot" (nonlinear) decision you made. For example, the cops might be making an assault on a gang's warehouse; if you side with the cops, you'd have to take on a fortified position. This would require a different kind of gameplay than what you'd get by siding with the gangsters (who would be defending that position). If you want to try both scenarios out, you have to play the game twice.

Quote:

Original post by Derakon I think we may be missing out on some distinctions here... Any game is going to require some kind of choice to you, because games are interactive. Most of those choices are going to be related to the game's genre. For example, a platforming game would require you to decide when to run and when to jump. A tactical RPG requires you to decide where to place your units and what abilities they should use. Same for chess, minus the abilities. These are not examples of nonlinearity. They are examples of gameplay. Typically any situation where you are making gameplay decisions can be thought of as part of a given scenario. For a tactical RPG, a scenario would be one battle. For chess, it's one game. For an FPS, it's one room or area. Nonlinearity applies at a larger scale. Not if your character should use the machinegun or the pistol, but if your character should side with the cops or the gangsters. In a linear game, you would be on one side or the other, enemies and allies clearly dilineated (barring plot twists). In a nonlinear game you would have that choice to make, and it would significantly affect how things fall out down the line. Within the context of one of those decisions, you get to make many gameplay decisions like the examples I listed above, and the gameplay scenarios you face are determined by which "plot" (nonlinear) decision you made. For example, the cops might be making an assault on a gang's warehouse; if you side with the cops, you'd have to take on a fortified position. This would require a different kind of gameplay than what you'd get by siding with the gangsters (who would be defending that position). If you want to try both scenarios out, you have to play the game twice.

I think this is too plot focused, or that just may be the example you used. Would it be fair to say that a game is non-linear if it contains significant "long term", when compared with the normal gameplay mechanics, elements? Or perhaps if there are a sufficient number of decisions which significantly modify the sort of gameplay?

Quote:

Original post by Way Walker Quote: Original post by Derakon I think we may be missing out on some distinctions here... <snip> I think this is too plot focused, or that just may be the example you used. Would it be fair to say that a game is non-linear if it contains significant "long term", when compared with the normal gameplay mechanics, elements? Or perhaps if there are a sufficient number of decisions which significantly modify the sort of gameplay?

Mmm, yes, bad example. "Long-term" consequences from decisions should be fine. Or perhaps, think of nonlinear games as having a metagame placed over the base gameplay? You can then layer this as much as you like; what would a linearly nonlinear game be like? You can only make long-term decisions of a certain type?

Quote:

Original post by Nathan Baum Quote: Original post by Kevinator Linearity is a continuum. On one end, is a movie. On the other, a perfect simulation of real life. When I say 'linear game', I'm referring to a RANGE on the continuum. I thought this was obvious, so I didn't bother to point it out. ... My point was also that you claim that linear games are superior to non-linear games, but cite their non-linear content as evidence. ...

So bump up the slider a few notches from the movie category, then. (if what you're trying to do is define the range I'm talking about.)

Also, read the original post, which does not cite non-linear content as evidence. Plus, there's a lot more of it.

Okay, I agree & disagree with the original post. I do like customization & non-linear gameplay, but only in the proper circumstances. If I am playing a game that tells me a story, then by God I want them to give me the "ONE" ending that the story is supposed to have. I'm paying them to tell me a story, not to make up my own. It may be okay to take some non-linear paths to the ending, but all roads should lead to Rome!

It is especially annoying to play a sequel to a game that had alternate endings, & not be able to start the sequel based on the ending you chose in last game.

But, if it's an MMO or open-ended RPG type of game, then I don't mind the customization or the lack of linear content. But, I do agree with how it can be a pain to try to figure out how to create a character & choose all the proper powers or skills etc, when you've never had the opportunity to try them out to see how they work. Scrapping chars & starting over again just to get a minor detail changed is just bad for business. Players should be allowed to make any adjustments to the same char if they wish, as long as it doesn't adversely effect gameplay.

LOL! OK, I LOVE the way you rant! I think you point out something that is very important to gaming but is often overlooked; the psychology of the player. I'll bet money you don't like going new places for vacations. I'll also bet money you have some of the same problems picking out your own wardrobe as you have picking your character's wardrobe and attributes.
The type of anxiety you describe has to do with "perfection syndrome" a subset in obsessive compulsive disorder. Now, don't get too bent out of shape, most folks involved with programming have at least a smidgeon of obsessive compulsive characteristics and it can actually be an asset in your work. What successful programmer hasn't sweated several times over a code module until it is "just right". The need to get things "just right" leads to a preference for short linear game structures. If you are targeting players who are typically in high-pressure jobs or young family types (22-34) short and linear with limited options is the way to go. If you are targeting retirees (a BIG and growing market demographic these days) or high school students you will want a slower paced open-ended game.
No one structure is going to please everyone but I think it would help if you know your target audience while you design the game.

Somehow made me think of this thread.