This thread is very interesting..

I personally think that the biggest problem with games so far in their lack of representing cinematic combat well is in the root of the emphasis..

Most fighting games or action games with a combat mechanics like to focus on things like combos, attacks, special attacks etc etc..

This is all well and good but it means that the games will never get any more cinematic/realistic unless some change in focus is made to the defensive side..

You tend to find that in almost all games, combat allows a player to attack an enemy with a dangerously lethal weapon (in real life), and in the game the enemy wouldn't recieve a fatal wound/blow initially and it would take several blows to down such an opponent..

This is probably due to developers attempting to keep the game balanced but without realising that such balance can also be achieved where the focus was shifted..

For example, in a boxing match the two fighters would constantly throw blows at each other but only rarely would certain blows connect and leave the opponent with a mortal wound whereas on a boxing game for instance, the characters would fire punch after punch into each others faces and fail at every attempt to effectively parry most attacks since both parties are hell bent on the idea of who can "punch the most life out of the opponent first" without considering that in a realistic situation, both parties would address "keeping a solid defence active at all times" before they even thought about how many punches it will take to floor the other..

If a fighting game or combat mechanic was devised in such a way as to keep the emphasis on parrying, blocking, dodging, countering, counter-countering, counter-counter-countering etc.. I'm sure we'd see combat looking alot more intense and dramatic..

Imagine Soul Calibre but with each character having as many defensive techniques as there are offensive ones and provided the mechanics of use for such techniques are made simple, straight forward yet intuitive, then the job of "balancing the game" would only fall down to the designer havingto figure out how "effective" the "blows that connect" need to be rather than maknig them weak and unreastic just for the sake of preventing a skewed combat model..

If in a fighting game a character could "actually" break his opponents arm when the character performs a grapple move exhibiting such an action, then it would only mean making such a move difficult to succeed by increasing the ease of parrying/evasion to keep the game balanced well..

And in doing this it also makes the combat experience much more realistic since i'm sure no fighter is gonna go floppy and allow you to have your way with them after a grapple in real-life combat.. lest they want you to tear them apart in battle..

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Original post by ArchangelMorph If a fighting game or combat mechanic was devised in such a way as to keep the emphasis on parrying, blocking, dodging, countering, counter-countering, counter-counter-countering etc.. I'm sure we'd see combat looking alot more intense and dramatic..

I couldn't agree more, this is exactly my beef with current games, the lack of defensive emphasis, and also the lack of realistic defense, ie a block should actually have to move into the path of the attackers blade, not just hold the weapon in some arbitrary defensive pose.

For the kind of film swordfighting I usually see, Monkey Island is the most representative.

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Original post by Naxos SirGustav, I think I may have played the game you're talking about. If the last level is you ( Luke S. ) vs Vader, then yea, I played it. It was fun but somewhat slow ( the combat ) and you didn't really have a choice of attack, it just told you what to do, and if you did it, you win.

Was it?... my memory must be more vague than I remember :)

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Original post by Naxos My friend didn't like this system, that's why I scraped it a while back. Overall though, what do you guys think are the good/bad points of the "Quoted" description?

To me that system sound awfully like realistic swordsplay, atleast the footwork reminded me of the 2h sword-fighting I've done.

I designed this system after whatching LoTR:Fellowship of the ring several times ;)
(partially based on Oni fighting system and re4 gameplay)

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3rd-person style Rune-style of pickup is used = animation when the charcter picks up something Controls(assuming std controls): WASD-movement, doubletapping W makes the character run, doubletaping and then holding makes the character backflip, doubletapping S/d makes the character roll once E-pickup object or equip/unequip weapon Shift-Use shield Q-Previously used weapon Ctrl-Dodge Space-jump Mouse-look Mousewheel up-next weapon Mousewheel down-previous weapon RMB-kick LMB-punch/use weapon Thumb-button-use (boot)knife #1-#3 - use "spells" Damage system: The "health" of the player is represented by 3 values: maximumHealth, maximumFocus, currentFocus where valid values are maximumHealth>maximumFocus>currentFocus. When damaged, maximumFocus-=damage and currentFocus-=damage*2. You get more currentFocus over time(slightly less when moving/fighting), but never more than maximumFocus. When eating, taking potions, seeing a medicne-man or something maximumFocus and currentFocus is restored. When damage is recieved the player looses control of the character for a few seconds. A bar appears that sort-of represents the pain/willforce of the character appears. By pressing buttons(mouse-buttons?) the bar-value increases. Rapidly pressing it should only take a maximum of 4-10 seconds ro regain control of the character, depending on the maximumFocus. Fighting system: Almost all of the attacks/blocks/dodges require stamina. When the stamina is completed a charcter can't dodge, the attacks are somewhat slower and doesn't deal that much damage(dmg/2), and blocks may have other effects(for instact the charcter may be knocked down). Using the sword(LMB) and kicking(RMB) my resolt in (different) combos. If you loose your weapon(through damage or disarm-attacks) you can fight width your fists. RMB-kick LMB-punch. Holding LMB grabs your opponent, releasing it throws away the opponent. Rapidly clicking RMB while the opponent is grabbed strangles the opponent. If you are grabbed you may click the knife-button to put a knife in your opponent(ala re1:remake). If you don't have any weapon active you may click the knife-button to activate a knife to be used in close-combat. Pressing the knife button again throws it away (towards a target). Pressing the knife button while a weapon is equipped throws away the knife instantly. When using an armor the damage is reduced if the damage is in the location of the armor. How much the damage is reduced depends on the armour. Inventory system: A charcter can carry a maximum of three weapons: A close-combat weapon(sword,axe,hammer), a long-ranged weapon(bows etc), and a magic weapon(staff etc). The charcter can also carry 0-5 knifes, 0-20 arrows(for the bow), and one armour. A charcter may carry a shield. Differnt shields have different attributs(may be used as a weapon(if it got spikes)), it may be used to block heavier attacks(more protection) and more attacks(more hp/ap). When a shield isn't used it is on the character's back. Weapons: Axe blocks sword. Sword blocks axe. Sword blocks sword. A sword is faster than an axe. An axe delivers more damage. A hammer is unblockable. The slowest and most damage-delivering weapon is an hammer. More Fighting-systems: If you are attacking you can't block. If it is possible(more on this later) to do an automatic block with the current weapon such action is performed. If it isn't then we continue to blocking/avoiding. A few icons appear based on what actions the placer can take. For instance the player can avoid an attack by crouching, stepping back or by blocking with the shild. If the player is fast enough he/she can press the corresponging button to avoid damage(Ctrl for crouching, S for stepping back or shift for using the shield). If the stamina is to low there is also a weapon icon simulating blocking with the weapon. The automatic block occurs if the stamina is high enough and the character is able to block with his weapon. Incomming projectiles(such as arrows and knives) are basicly blocked on the same way(except they are never automaticly blocks). Some moves can't be blocked and thus must be avoided. Pressing the shield-button(shift) your character holds the shield infront of him/her. When using the shield you can block the attack and then do a fast counter-attack. By releasing any of the attack buttons(LMB or RMB) you can throw the shield towards your opponent. Different shields does different damage. Spells: Some role-playing is introduced: The character may choose to specialize in magics that can be (easily) performed during combat. By pressing a number (1-3) the character does the spell. Theese are basicly power-ups such as fill stamina, heal, generate ally(create a basic NPC that follow you and attack your enemies), invisible, magic armor(you can't be damaged for some time), frenzy(you do more damage and are a bit faster(?)) etc. Each spell got a power. When this power is full the spell can be used(and thus setting the power back to 0). This should be slow. Since there is only 3 slots and I got about 11 spells there should be some room for specialization. I'm event hinking of allowing the character to select 3 of the same kind(for instance 3x heal). I'm thinking of maybee incorperating a mild slow-motion in fighting to allow people with "slower reactions" to play the game, but I am unsure if this would change the feel of the game drasticly...

might be what you are looking for

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Original post by sirGustav To me that system sound awfully like realistic swordsplay, atleast the footwork reminded me of the 2h sword-fighting I've done.

When/Where have you done 2-handed sword-fighting? heh That sounds interesting. :)

h==hours not handed :)
Local 2 hour sword-fighting course through school. 1 hour an 30 min learning how to do some basic footwork and holding the sword. 15 min basic sword-moving. 15-fighting. (roughly)
If you play prince of percia(the original 2d game) the fighting was a lot like that. Stepping and moving sword up and down. Realistic, but pretty boring IMHO ;)

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Original post by Naxos Of course, if you have a realistic damage system, then you might not differentiate between the strengths of various attacks.

I've been giving the damage system some thought. I'm not too bothered whether it is realistic, just so long as it results in a 'fun' experience. A lot of realistic damage systems result in 'lucky one hit kills' or the opponent is so badly injured that wouldn't stand a chance of wining. How this is handled in the movies may offer some insight. There are basically two type of sword-fight in the movies. There are those against unskilled grunts that die after 2 or 3 clashes of the sword and then there are the skilled adversaries. The more skilled the opponent the longer the fight, the more thrilling the fight. The fight doesn't end because they have suffered lots tiny cuts, its because they become too tired to continue, they loose the will to fight. At which point they either get skewered or run away.

Therefore we should do away with a hit point system and replace it with stamina points. When attacked by your opponent, if you nothing, the default response would a very sloppy block. You wouldn't take a hit but it would lose some stamina. Once your stamina is exhausted then you take the a hit and probably die.

May I suggest Final Fantasy 9 in the beginning? :) That's some nice swordplay right there :D Hehe.
But yeah, Soul Calibur is exactly what you're looking for.

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Original post by XVampireX May I suggest Final Fantasy 9 in the beginning? :) That's some nice swordplay right there :D Hehe. But yeah, Soul Calibur is exactly what you're looking for.

I have soul calibur. I honestly like the game a LOT. If it just had a deeper blocking system, with animations to go along with it, then you'd be right. My dreamcast went kaput a few months ago, though, so I haven't been able to play it in a while.

I'm still thinking about this gameplay though. I'm having some new ideas... when I get them sorted out I might post them up here.

EDIT:
StaticVoid:
Sorry I missed your post first time around. Anyway, so you're saying that, if the player does nothing, then he will automatically block incoming attacks, and stamina will be taken away, right? But, on the flip side, if the player blocks it himself, none is taken away, right? Or am I misinterpreting what you said? This sounds like a good idea. Though, I would prefer that the auto-blocking be somewhat costly as far as stamina goes, to encourage the player to block himself.

Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time
Prince of Persia: Warrior Within
Prince of Persia: Kindred Blades

These are great examples.

(sorry if one of these has been mentioned already)